Author Topic: Remove mercenary distance limits  (Read 31145 times)

egamma

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #75: October 29, 2012, 12:16:45 AM »
Step One: Land 40K CS in donut townsland as a single unit, unannounced and unheralded.
Step Two: ??? (March on the capital, which is cut off from its armies)
Step Three: Profit

Townslands can have fortifications and militia as well. You'd probably have to land in a rural, then move to the townsland, who would have recruited militia, and then to the city, which will have recruited a LOT of militia.

Marlboro

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #76: October 29, 2012, 02:25:10 AM »
Hardly. Aurvandil has a large mobile force, sure, but if they send it all to crush another realm's capital, all of the other realms have free reign to burn Aurvandil to the ground.

Yes, SA's cohesion is just incredible. I forgot that it didn't take almost two weeks to organize a halfway decent fighting force to retake Paisly. which was essentially unguarded. I bet the 'Moot's even worse better.

Townslands can have fortifications and militia as well. You'd probably have to land in a rural, then move to the townsland, who would have recruited militia, and then to the city, which will have recruited a LOT of militia.

No matter what it's gonna be a knock-down drag-out where victory for the defenders is not assured. Through miraculous reactions from all the realm's nobles and favorable RNG they MIGHT be able to fight Hypothetical Invasion Force off, but the odds are against it. I have seldom seen townslands with more than 5K militia, and their fortifications won't mean a lot once the siege engines start rolling in. I don't see how a typical townsland would be anything more than a speedbump unless they know exactly what's coming, which is essentially my whole point.

Anyway, massive morale drops are a mechanic that prevents this kind of thing. Coupled with sea travel it's more important than ever. I just hope everyone campaigning against the mechanic on the sole basis that SA would be able to shove more of its boot up Aurvandil's ass keep in mind that it works both ways.
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pcw27

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #77: October 29, 2012, 08:56:33 AM »
Step One: Land 40K CS in donut townsland as a single unit, unannounced and unheralded.
Step Two: ??? (March on the capital, which is cut off from its armies)
Step Three: Profit

1. Aurvandil's entire army is only 25kcs and that's counting militia. Only Astrum has 40kcs, and chances are a good portion of that is militia.

2. The "Doughnut" region is almost always a fortified towns-land with militia and units moving in and out of the capital. The landing force would suffer heavy casualties.

3. The capital would likely have heavy fortifications, militia and more then a few units. More heavy casualties.

4. As mentioned, this would leave Aurvandil completely open to attack.

5. If under different circumstances a realm did launch a massive amphibious assault on a realm's capital in a risky gambit to win a war it would be AWESOME.

Yes, SA's cohesion is just incredible. I forgot that it didn't take almost two weeks to organize a halfway decent fighting force to retake Paisly. which was essentially unguarded. I bet the 'Moot's even worse better.

Two weeks is about as quick as this sort of thing could possibly be organized. It's not our fault Terran called us in when we weren't really needed.

No matter what it's gonna be a knock-down drag-out where victory for the defenders is not assured. Through miraculous reactions from all the realm's nobles and favorable RNG they MIGHT be able to fight Hypothetical Invasion Force off, but the odds are against it.

Only if your hypothetical fighting force is more powerful then anything that actually exists, lands all troops roughly at the same time, and ignores the fact that claiming beachheads is an additional battle penalty on top of the disadvantage of storming fortifications.

Even if they manage to hold the capital the realm is far from doomed. They can simply move the capital, raise an army and take the city back (assuming the army hasn't already left by then due to lack of gold).

I have seldom seen townslands with more than 5K militia, and their fortifications won't mean a lot once the siege engines start rolling in. I don't see how a typical townsland would be anything more than a speedbump unless they know exactly what's coming, which is essentially my whole point.

I believe "navies" lets you know if an enemy force is coming, plus there are always informants and infiltrators.

Anyway, massive morale drops are a mechanic that prevents this kind of thing. Coupled with sea travel it's more important than ever.

There are already two other mechanics that prevent this from working out like your describing. First is unit payment, the invading force wouldn't be able to stay long especially with cost of a mercenary force. Second is that they could never TO the region and expect to hold it because of the distance from capital penalty. They could CTO but they'd most likely succumb to siege in a matter of weeks. If these proved to be insufficient to make such assaults acceptably challenging then the answer is simply to turn up the difficulty for landing troops on a defended coast.

Also once realms are aware of this possibility they'll start keeping larger defending forces in the capital.

I just hope everyone campaigning against the mechanic on the sole basis that SA would be able to shove more of its boot up Aurvandil's ass keep in mind that it works both ways.

If I logged in and learned Aurvandil had landed an amphibious force in Darfix or Eidulb it would make my day. See that's the problem, what you're describing is AWESOME and would be a great thing to have happen in game provided it was a suitably challenging feat. Under the current system it would still be a huge challenge to pull it off without getting massacred in the process.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 09:24:25 AM by pcw27 »

Chenier

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #78: October 29, 2012, 12:02:01 PM »
Yes, SA's cohesion is just incredible. I forgot that it didn't take almost two weeks to organize a halfway decent fighting force to retake Paisly. which was essentially unguarded. I bet the 'Moot's even worse better.

All of them... On their own.

Do you honestly think it takes that much to take down Candiels if Aurvandil's mobile army is all gone to torch someone's capital? I'm pretty sure Astrum could take on Candiels on their own, provided the mobile forces are absent. Same with Morek. And probably the same with others as well.
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DamnTaffer

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #79: October 29, 2012, 02:00:57 PM »
1. Aurvandil's entire army is only 25kcs and that's counting militia. Only Astrum has 40kcs, and chances are a good portion of that is militia.

2. The "Doughnut" region is almost always a fortified towns-land with militia and units moving in and out of the capital. The landing force would suffer heavy casualties.

3. The capital would likely have heavy fortifications, militia and more then a few units. More heavy casualties.

4. As mentioned, this would leave Aurvandil completely open to attack.

5. If under different circumstances a realm did launch a massive amphibious assault on a realm's capital in a risky gambit to win a war it would be AWESOME.

At its height Aurvandil raised close to 60k cs. Aurvandil has allies to protect it.

Only if your hypothetical fighting force is more powerful then anything that actually exists, lands all troops roughly at the same time, and ignores the fact that claiming beachheads is an additional battle penalty on top of the disadvantage of storming fortifications.

Even if they manage to hold the capital the realm is far from doomed. They can simply move the capital, raise an army and take the city back (assuming the army hasn't already left by then due to lack of gold).

I believe "navies" lets you know if an enemy force is coming, plus there are always informants and infiltrators.

As I said before Aurvandil could easly raise enough to annihilate a capital very quickly, as could the Astroists. Moving capitals takes time and money and even so they've probably just lost there best region if the capital requires moving. Knowing Tom i'd also bet there are adverse affects to capital moves expecially during a TO and worser effects of loosing a capital. And navies have no scout reports, you only know they arrive once they arrive.

There are already two other mechanics that prevent this from working out like your describing. First is unit payment, the invading force wouldn't be able to stay long especially with cost of a mercenary force. Second is that they could never TO the region and expect to hold it because of the distance from capital penalty. They could CTO but they'd most likely succumb to siege in a matter of weeks. If these proved to be insufficient to make such assaults acceptably challenging then the answer is simply to turn up the difficulty for landing troops on a defended coast.

They can TO or CTO the region if it has a coast I believe, unit payment isn't a problem, gold can be gained from looting or by just having lots of it before attacking. If they CTO'd (does that feature still even work?) they would probably loose the seige, but by then the region would be ruined.

Also once realms are aware of this possibility they'll start keeping larger defending forces in the capital.

If I logged in and learned Aurvandil had landed an amphibious force in Darfix or Eidulb it would make my day. See that's the problem, what you're describing is AWESOME and would be a great thing to have happen in game provided it was a suitably challenging feat. Under the current system it would still be a huge challenge to pull it off without getting massacred in the process.


Keeping a larger force in the capital is expensive, which means there will be less gold for realms to do fun things with.

No, its not awesome it would be terrible. Any realm being able to attack any other realm would be a disaster, It would also change the entire structure of how the game is played massively supporting power blocks of allies warring at afar over anything else. Expecially now with sea travel where you can travel at massive speed this is even more true.

DamnTaffer

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #80: October 29, 2012, 02:03:48 PM »
Also notice how the war protests have ruined aurvandil thing was responded to by haha your taxes are too high and you need more diplomats deal with it, but when astrum have morale problems while trying to attack at the far side of a CONTINENT the response is oh noes! this is a problem we must look into it immediately..

vonGenf

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #81: October 29, 2012, 02:16:29 PM »
Also notice how the war protests have ruined aurvandil thing was responded to by haha your taxes are too high and you need more diplomats deal with it, but when astrum have morale problems while trying to attack at the far side of a CONTINENT the response is oh noes! this is a problem we must look into it immediately..

No, I did not notice that. Maybe that's because it was also looked into immediately?

Now I agree that war protests should not add up in a linear fashion, and I've just added code to dampen it a bit, so that the 2nd, 3rd, etc. war they protest on counts progressively less.
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MediumTedium

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #82: October 29, 2012, 04:00:44 PM »
Aurvandil is already gimped too much because of war protest bug so we cannot properly defend anymore, war could be considered already over unless something can be pulled of but i doubt it...
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 04:05:27 PM by MediumTedium »
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Indirik

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #83: October 29, 2012, 05:21:13 PM »
Moving capitals takes time and money and even so they've probably just lost there best region if the capital requires moving. Knowing Tom i'd also bet there are adverse affects to capital moves expecially during a TO and worser effects of loosing a capital.
You cannot move your capital while either the old capital or the new capital are being attacked, or the site of battles or unrest. If you are running a TO in a capital, then the target realm cannot move their capital until the TO succeeds or is defeated. I think there's some unspecified waiting period (a few turns) after you regain control before you can move it. Or maybe it's just once you stop getting the appropriate messages in the region report.

Quote
And navies have no scout reports, you only know they arrive once they arrive.
As of now, correct. But the "shipyard" regional building (which you can build, but which is not active yet) is intended to allow some sort of "patrol" function. That will allow some reports of troop movement in the adjacent sea zone, The exact effects are TBD.

Quote
If they CTO'd (does that feature still even work?)
No, the CTO function is not yet restored.

Also notice how the war protests have ruined aurvandil thing was responded to by haha your taxes are too high and you need more diplomats deal with it, but when astrum have morale problems while trying to attack at the far side of a CONTINENT the response is oh noes! this is a problem we must look into it immediately.
You must be reading a different forum than me. The dev team's answer to the troops morale problem was: "Too bad for you, fight closer to home." You'll notice that no code change was made in response.

The dev team's response to Aurvandil's region morale problem was: "Hmm... That's a bit too extreme, let's turn it down a bit. Now, here's how you fix the rest of it yourself." i.e. Code was changed to help alleviate the worst of Aurvandil's problem.

So, are you ready to admit that this accusation of preferential treatment on the part of the dev team is unjust and unwarranted?
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Foundation

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #84: October 29, 2012, 07:28:56 PM »
Wait, couldn't Realms move their Capital during the Daimon Invasion even if there was 'unrest', but at a penalty?

Anything and everything related to Daimons is a poor example to base general assumptions on for the rest of the game worlds. :)
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Telrunya

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #85: October 29, 2012, 11:16:37 PM »
Anything and everything related to Daimons is a poor example to base general assumptions on for the rest of the game worlds. :)

Good point, but it could have been a general change. Was that Invasion-only?

DamnTaffer

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #86: October 30, 2012, 12:54:17 AM »
This is not some hidden feature. A realm suffers discontent, especially at the former capital, during capital movements. Again, this is not a hidden feature.

It is however... A feature i've never tested...

Feylonis

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #87: October 30, 2012, 01:39:55 AM »
Just because you yourself haven't experienced it does not mean that you should ignore all previous reports regarding this feature.

egamma

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #88: October 30, 2012, 02:59:18 AM »
You must be reading a different forum than me. The dev team's answer to the troops morale problem was: "Too bad for you, fight closer to home." You'll notice that no code change was made in response.

Here are the bug reports for morale:
http://bugs.battlemaster.org/view.php?id=7490
http://bugs.battlemaster.org/view.php?id=7506

You'll notice that Foundation made no code changes in response.

egamma

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Re: Remove mercenary distance limits
« Reply #89: October 30, 2012, 03:35:45 AM »
let's try and stay on topic

Capital Move discussion moved here:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3430.0.html