Council Power

[Bedwyr]

There may not be many successful secessions, but the threat of secession is a major problem.  A number of people, me included, think that too much power has gone to the Dukes which makes realms less cohesive and means more intriguing and less realm vs realm fighting.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

By intriguing, depending on who you are that might not mean one of its definitions as synonym of interesting.

[Iltaran]

I think the problem isn't so much "genuine" successions as "suicide" secesssions.

To create a stable realm out of a succession you need a strong group of supporters, a suitable mix of recruitment centres and a reasonable foreign standing. But if you dont really want to create something new and are only interested in hurting your current realm, then you basically just need to press a button. Most Dukes can severely wound their realm with ease.

[Indirik]

But if you dont really want to create something new and are only interested in hurting your current realm, then you basically just need to press a button.

An unfortunate result of the Internet !@#$%^& syndrome. You know that no matter what happens, you're perfectly safe sitting there behind your computer screen. And on top of that, your character is pretty much guaranteed to survive as well. This combines to let people have their characters do stuff that would almost certainly cause a real person's head to take a permanent leave of absence from their body.

Now, that;s not always necessarily bad. It does sometimes keep the game interesting. But it does enable some griefing behavior, and related dweebishness.

[Kain]

An unfortunate result of the Internet !@#$%^& syndrome. You know that no matter what happens, you're perfectly safe sitting there behind your computer screen. And on top of that, your character is pretty much guaranteed to survive as well. This combines to let people have their characters do stuff that would almost certainly cause a real person's head to take a permanent leave of absence from their body.

Now, that;s not always necessarily bad. It does sometimes keep the game interesting. But it does enable some griefing behavior, and related dweebishness.

I wouldn't say it is that easy. Generally, dukeships aren't handed to nobles new to the realm. Often there is a big investment for a character to get appointed to one. Seceeding just to hurt the realm also throws all his time and effort in the toilet aswell.

So even if the character is pretty sure he'll survive, he has still thrown away a priviliged standing in the realm and has to start completely fresh at the bottom of another.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Hehe...see the Lefanis family.

[Chenier]

Hehe...see the Lefanis family.

Fools are there to be fooled.

[Bedwyr]

So even if the character is pretty sure he'll survive, he has still thrown away a priviliged standing in the realm and has to start completely fresh at the bottom of another.

Except you're not starting fresh, especially if you go to the enemy of the previous realm that's delighted you just crippled their foe.  People who have had positions get them more frequently, often regardless of how they left their old realm (especially if that was on another continent).

[Kain]

Except you're not starting fresh, especially if you go to the enemy of the previous realm that's delighted you just crippled their foe.  People who have had positions get them more frequently, often regardless of how they left their old realm (especially if that was on another continent).

Yeah ok, you do have a point there.

[AlexR]

The topic of Dukes having too much power is fascinating - and that is something I strongly agree with.  It is quite possible to evict a council member, including a ruler (by protesting, even if the position is un-electable), but good luck doing that with a Duke.  Oh, and you can also remove most council members by assassination.  To me that says that Dukes have waaay too much power, being mostly immune to this as well.

But let's get back to the original post.
I have long argued that in the council, only two of the four positions have any actual power -- the judge and the banker (probably in that order).  Ruler and general really have none.  There is no gold associated with the position (unless the banker says so).

Yes, the ruler controls diplomacy, but that just gives you the power to seriously damage the realm by drawing it into a war.  Having a big suicide button does not equal to having actual power.  And if your realm-mates realize you are trying that, they can easily protest you out in a moment.

And yes, yes, I am talking about the power of shiny shiny buttons.  And yes, one may have power in the realm by commanding respect and support of other nobles without having any buttons.  But that does not require you to have a position of power.  In fact, you'd be better off having a dukeship position instead (which is subject to less risk of losing it and comes with much more gold), if your plan is to lead through respect of other nobles.

I think it would be helpful to add some additional buttons for the ruler and the general -- because now I would (and have!) chose to be a marshal instead of general any time.  Either to provide these two positions with additional power or at least to make it more interesting to play these prestigious positions. 

[egamma]

The topic of Dukes having too much power is fascinating - and that is something I strongly agree with.  It is quite possible to evict a council member, including a ruler (by protesting, even if the position is un-electable), but good luck doing that with a Duke.  Oh, and you can also remove most council members by assassination.  To me that says that Dukes have waaay too much power, being mostly immune to this as well.

But let's get back to the original post.
I have long argued that in the council, only two of the four positions have any actual power -- the judge and the banker (probably in that order).  Ruler and general really have none.  There is no gold associated with the position (unless the banker says so).

Yes, the ruler controls diplomacy, but that just gives you the power to seriously damage the realm by drawing it into a war.  Having a big suicide button does not equal to having actual power.  And if your realm-mates realize you are trying that, they can easily protest you out in a moment.

Really? The power to declare war, change the way the other positions are elected, appoint lords of imperial regions and vacated ducal seats, these don't represent power to you? What about signing treaties, changing the name of the realm, changing the realm banner? Have you played a ruler and seen all the buttons you get, especially in the capital?

And yes, yes, I am talking about the power of shiny shiny buttons.  And yes, one may have power in the realm by commanding respect and support of other nobles without having any buttons.  But that does not require you to have a position of power.  In fact, you'd be better off having a dukeship position instead (which is subject to less risk of losing it and comes with much more gold), if your plan is to lead through respect of other nobles.

I think it would be helpful to add some additional buttons for the ruler and the general -- because now I would (and have!) chose to be a marshal instead of general any time.  Either to provide these two positions with additional power or at least to make it more interesting to play these prestigious positions.

I agree about the general's position, but saying that the banker is more powerful than the ruler is a bit crazy.

[Bedwyr]

Really? The power to declare war, change the way the other positions are elected, appoint lords of imperial regions and vacated ducal seats, these don't represent power to you? What about signing treaties, changing the name of the realm, changing the realm banner? Have you played a ruler and seen all the buttons you get, especially in the capital?

I agree about the general's position, but saying that the banker is more powerful than the ruler is a bit crazy.

Power to change diplomacy is going away under the new treaty system (though Ruler gets to control Ambassador appointments, so partially still there), there's talk about doing away with appointing of imperial lords, and every time the Ruler does anything the game tells you to look at it carefully and start protesting if you don't like it.  You ever seen what happens to Rulers who change the government system without getting the realm's buy-in first?  It's not fun for the Ruler.

But, yeah, I'd still say the Ruler had more power than the Banker.  The minor powers left to steal gold and change taxes are pretty pathetic.

[Shenron]

Power to change diplomacy is going away under the new treaty system (though Ruler gets to control Ambassador appointments, so partially still there), there's talk about doing away with appointing of imperial lords, and every time the Ruler does anything the game tells you to look at it carefully and start protesting if you don't like it.  You ever seen what happens to Rulers who change the government system without getting the realm's buy-in first?  It's not fun for the Ruler.

But, yeah, I'd still say the Ruler had more power than the Banker.  The minor powers left to steal gold and change taxes are pretty pathetic.

We need some way for the ruler to be rich. That way he is more like a super-duke. Obviously rulers often had cities of their own in medieval times however I think we need to simulate this sort of power balance without actually forcing the ruler to own a city also (since we don't promote that according to the game mechanics.)

Basically the ruler needs to some way to increase his mojo dramatically, he shouldn't just be symbol for the realm's collective interests. This is more of a modern idea.

[Bedwyr]

We need some way for the ruler to be rich. That way he is more like a super-duke. Obviously rulers often had cities of their own in medieval times however I think we need to simulate this sort of power balance without actually forcing the ruler to own a city also (since we don't promote that according to the game mechanics.)

Basically the ruler needs to some way to increase his mojo dramatically, he shouldn't just be symbol for the realm's collective interests. This is more of a modern idea.

The realm has to be able to actually tax cities.  That would really be all we need.  Yes, Dukes could secede and the like, but most people won't support a Duke who secedes over a reasonable tax rate.

[Vellos]

The realm has to be able to actually tax cities.  That would really be all we need.  Yes, Dukes could secede and the like, but most people won't support a Duke who secedes over a reasonable tax rate.

I believe I proposed this somewhere else.

Instead of the realm imposing "ducal taxes," it can impose a tax directly on the income of cities and strongholds. That incentivizes the use of ducal taxes by dukes to collect moneys from rurals, in order to protect their own incomes.