Sorraine vs. Ohnar West

[Scarlett]

I think it's actually more of a brand problem than a geography problem.

Ohnar came about after Lasanar collapsed, which happened in a messy and unplanned way under Prime Minister Vulpes. Ohnar and Ohnar West were both sort of cobbled-together realms because the Dukes needed something to belong to. Even when Galiard was Ohnar West's PM when it was larger, I never had any notion of what it 'meant' as a realm except that it provided a convenient umbrella for largely autonomous Dukes. Toupellon had the same problem.

The one thing that Lasanar did really well during its prime was that it established a very firm feudal structure to support its Republic government. They had this idea of the ruling body (the Grand Council) as a collective sovereign, and even though Dukes had a lot of pull, they were made to swear fealty to the council and publicly support whatever it decided. There were semi-regular attempts to weaken the grand council, usually by Dukes of Colasan, but they were all executed or killed in battle. After that happened two or three times, everyone figured out that maybe the grand council wasn't such a bad idea.

Even before it had a bunch of guys from Arcachon, Ohnar was at best a non-functional realm: it never made a material difference in a war, it never colonized anything, and it never aspired to (much less achieved) any kind of greatness. As much fun as I make of Sartania's annual blow-ups, they always happen in pursuit of something awesome, even if it's also ridiculous. Ohnar was always just ... meh.

[Velax]

Ohnar was at best a non-functional realm: it never made a material difference in a war...Ohnar was always just ... meh.

That's not completely true. At the start of the war with Arcachon, the segment that happened before Aenilia, Zonasa and Kindara got involved, Arcachon launched a full scale attack on Ohnar. Ohnar met them in Nbasah and kicked their ass. They then helped Arcaea successfully assault Enlod, and had Aenilia not got involved, we would have finished Arcachon off then. I'm not really sure what happened to Ohnar after that, that Arcachon could so easily dominate them from that point on in the war.

[Solari]

I think it's actually more of a brand problem than a geography problem.

Ohnar came about after Lasanar collapsed, which happened in a messy and unplanned way under Prime Minister Vulpes. Ohnar and Ohnar West were both sort of cobbled-together realms because the Dukes needed something to belong to. Even when Galiard was Ohnar West's PM when it was larger, I never had any notion of what it 'meant' as a realm except that it provided a convenient umbrella for largely autonomous Dukes. Toupellon had the same problem.

This is a really interesting way to view things. It'd be a nice topic in the general forum.

[bluexmas]

OW's troop movement and coordination was pretty sad in the fight against Archachon.

[Gloria]

As one of the founders of Ohnar West, I'm glad to see it die.  After its founding members all left and Duke Iceberg died, it just became an empty realm for famous nobles from other realms to retire or regain glory. It has been a while since Ohnar stood for anything or had any reason to exist. 

So good look, Sorraine!

[Antonine]

Galiard doesn't even like having a Church addressing a King as any kind of equal in power.

Don't worry, the Church would never address a King as an equal in power - all kings are below the Church in the hierarchy of the world :p

[Antonine]

Also, as the player of the current head of the Church of Sartan, a character who was also PM of Ohnar West for a long time, the main thing that doomed the realm was the lack of any proper engagement by anyone in the realm for several years. Pretty much every PM and lots of other characters tried to make the realm exciting and dynamic but every time someone made an attempt all they got was the sound of crickets chirping.

Then, after the break away of southern OW, the realm actually had a chance to reinvent itself - but it was cursed by being reduced to a realm where Arcachonian sympathisers and refugees were the largest minority. That led to it becoming associated with all the ill will that Arcachon had brought upon itself and that was followed by it becoming a haven for every undesirable kicked out of every other FEI realm - the undesirables had nowhere else to go and OW couldn't afford to turn away any fresh blood.

Couple that with founding a new religion led by priests who were often the same undesirables and who generally went around pissing off people in other realms by not asking permission to preach and the next thing you have is a realm with no friends and lots of enemies.

Though, tbh, the only reason Sartanism considers WotD to be evil is because the original explanation of it sounded far too much like atheism. The rivalry and hatred between the two religions only really came about as a consequence of that.

[Lefanis]

Melehan isn't HER reason, you mean. My character, who is the Crown Prince, and therefore the second most powerful person in Sorraine, wants to fight because of Ohnar West selling food to Kindara. And since I have control of the military, that's the reason for the military going in.

Rofl  :D

It's like Ohnar is playing with its infamy level capped at 5, while realms like Arcaea and Sorraine got them somewhere at 50. A casus belli against Ohnar would have been containment, at best. Not annexation. Corslynth has non at all, I'm yet to see evidence that it was anything but a random land grab. On the other hand, Arcaea gets away with breaking truces and peace treaties, and when Sorraine butchers a few hundred Adgharin, no one bats an eyelash. Even with a higher limit, they're way over their infamy limit, it's just their military score is too great for anyone to risk themselves in a containment war against them.

[Velax]

Blah blah

At some point you'll need to accept responsibility for your own actions rather than blaming everything on everyone else. Everything you've done since leaving Arcachon has been idiotic to the point of suicidal. Why would you take a dozen nobles that despise Arcaea - and that Arcaea hates - and take over a realm right on Arcaea's border? Why would you ever think that could end in anything but tears for you? Why would you give positions of power to nobles known to be hated in multiple other realms? Why would you try to play far larger realms against each other without the intelligence or the friends to back it up? Why would you try to hold onto a duchy and ban its Sartanian duke when there's no way you can defend it? It boggles the mind, the series of idiotic mistakes Ohnar has made.

And now this latest stupidity. No one forced you to sell food to Kindara during a war when you're supposedly fighting on the other side. You did that all on your own, and you were stupid enough to give Sorraine the excuse it was looking for to destroy you. That's solely on your head, Lefanis.

[Lefanis]

At some point you'll need to accept responsibility for your own actions rather than blaming everything on everyone else.

Ehh... Obviously didn't get the reference I was making. Way to make it personal.

Anyway... hold onto a duchy? We returned it to Sorraine, silly us. Can't expect the same from Coralynth, though.

[bluexmas]

Land-grabbing is also a perfectly legitimate pursuit, is it not?

[Scarlett]

Kinda-sorta. BM made a stab at giving nobles 'legitimate' in-game causes for war with its claims systems a while back but it never really got off the ground, and without inheritance it's pretty difficult to use claims that way.

From a historical standpoint, you'd have minor land wars "just because" - parts of counties or smaller counties that would go back and forth between two Duchies or two Kingdoms. But you wouldn't see England conquering France as a "land grab" - you needed Henry II's marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine to legitimize the English holdings in France and you needed Edward III's claim of superior lineage to justify the 100 Years' war.

Some of these claims were flimsy but it was largely unheard of for two sizable Catholic realms to just declare war in hopes of grabbing territory. Maybe two neighboring catholic lords but that was pretty small scale stuff.

[Broose]

Looks like Coralynth is already pulling out of the war.

[Ender]

Looks like Coralynth is already pulling out of the war.

Unless they just wanted to be super buddy buddy with Sorraine, they have a better reason to stay out of it then they did getting into it, so that's for the best I think.

[Bedwyr]

Some of these claims were flimsy but it was largely unheard of for two sizable Catholic realms to just declare war in hopes of grabbing territory. Maybe two neighboring catholic lords but that was pretty small scale stuff.

That said, sizable wars were started over insults all the time, and harboring known enemies of the King or other powerful nobles was a perfectly acceptable cause for war, both of which would have been applicable in Coralynth's case.

Not to mention the religious angle, of course.