Kabrinskia, Astrum, and other such stuff of the North Western Astroist states.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Players in Aurvandil choose their own level of involvement, and it's their level of involvement that decides their place in the realm.

If you say Aurvandil takes it's to far, well do you ever see any nobles of Aurvandil complaining? No. And they're at liberty to leave or try to change things if they want. You disagree with how our realm runs, fair enough, but then Aurvandil runs differently exactly to be different. Madina was an omnishambles of failure, laziness and inefficiency and I specifically set out to make a realm of the opposite side of the spectrum, it gives players an opportunity to play in a realm specifically designed to be decisive, efficient and well run. Too many realms are one in the same, exact styles of playing, governance, roleplay and Aurvandil distinguishes itself and gives players an opportunity for something different.

These days, when you can easily have four, five characters depending on family fame, medals, donation etc it provides a nice extra option for your playing experience.

Battlemaster is a player driven game, it's meant to be played by the players in the way they consider most fun. It specifically tries to encourage diversity in playing styles, and we embody that trying not to be another realm in the hoi polloi of obscure genericism. We're not "doing it wrong", and hell, every continent needs a strong realm willing to pick a fight to keep things interesting and to unbalance the distribution of power.

[Kwanstein]

Sorry, no.

When literally everyone else on the continent (and pretty much everyone else in the entire game) is playing a particular way, and achieving a particular level of military efficiency, you don't get to come in with a realm formed around a group of OOC friends with absurdly high levels of activity and realm-focused self-sacrifice and claim that everyone else is just doing it wrong.

There was a time when all of BattleMaster played in the way that Aurvandil plays today. I remember it, and I played as both a leader and a regular knight in realms that were like that. Being a leader was wonderful fun, because you got to move around all these other chesspieces and watch as they did your will.

Being a regular knight sucked, hard.

BattleMaster isn't meant to be played like that. It's true that we've moved a bit too far in the opposite direction, and we need to regain some of that realm-as-team ethos, but in today's BattleMaster, Aurvandil just takes it too far.

If tax rates aren't meant to be optimised, why bother having them? You might as well just set all taxes at the same rate so as not to put uncompetitive players at a disadvantage.

[Anaris]

I don't see how you, as a developer, a representative of this game mind you, can go and say that and entire group of players is playing WRONG because they have high levels of activity and are play efficiently. We are playing how WE want to play. we aren't breaking SMA. Also, I have been a regular knight, in fact I'm little more than that now and Aurvandil is STILL a fun place to play. If anyone else doesn't think so they can move to a different realm where they find themselves more comfortable.

Anaris I like you. I just don't like that you said because I'm not playing how you might run your realm I'm playing wrong, and not only wrong but not having any fun while doing it. I think you should have more poise than that as a representative of this awesome game, volunteer or not.

Well, I was a bit harsh in my wording because Kwanstein said that Aurvandil is the only one doing it right, and everyone else is doing it wrong. I think you can understand how that rubs me somewhat the wrong way.

I understand that the people playing in Aurvandil enjoy playing that way, don't misunderstand me. But from everything I've seen, a bit part of the reason many of them enjoy it is simply because it means they win. A lot. Furthermore, as I said, the core of Aurvandil was built around a group of people who came together in BattleMaster for the specific reason that they enjoy playing in the old style, hyper-maximizing their military efficiency and focusing on winning wars, rather than the politics, intrigue, and interpersonal and diplomatic relations that the entire rest of the continent has been focused on since it opened four years ago.

If it weren't so all-pervading within the realm—if Aurvandil weren't using every trick in the book to maximize gold output and funnel it directly into military power—it wouldn't be so bad.

But BattleMaster simply isn't designed to cope with that level of min-maxing. Frankly, I'm not sure it's even possible to balance it to cope with both the way most people in BattleMaster play and the way the players in Aurvandil play. And that's the problem.

[Anaris]

If tax rates aren't meant to be optimised, why bother having them? You might as well just set all taxes at the same rate so as not to put uncompetitive players at a disadvantage.

That's a false dichotomy. The tax rates are, indeed, meant to be adjusted to suit the Lord. But most people don't want them to be right on the ragged edge—where, as you've been told before, they leave your region vulnerable to the slightest shocks, and liable to spiral down into anarchy if you're not very careful. They want to have them high enough to provide a good income, while still leaving a buffer so that if five different realms declare war on you, or you get a nasty priest tanking your loyalty, or a famine leaves your region starving for a week...you still have a chance to repair the stats before they spiral completely out of control.

[Kwanstein]

Well, I was a bit harsh in my wording because Kwanstein said that Aurvandil is the only one doing it right, and everyone else is doing it wrong. I think you can understand how that rubs me somewhat the wrong way.

I didn't say everyone was doing it right or wrong. That's subjective and I don't really care about that.

What I said was that everyone else was playing badly, and it's true. I once witnessed a Duke reduce his tax rate from 9% to 7% for no reason. That kind of playstyle isn't just uncompetitive, it's completely nonsensical.

That's a false dichotomy. The tax rates are, indeed, meant to be adjusted to suit the Lord. But most people don't want them to be right on the ragged edge—where, as you've been told before, they leave your region vulnerable to the slightest shocks, and liable to spiral down into anarchy if you're not very careful. They want to have them high enough to provide a good income, while still leaving a buffer so that if five different realms declare war on you, or you get a nasty priest tanking your loyalty, or a famine leaves your region starving for a week...you still have a chance to repair the stats before they spiral completely out of control.

So if they aren't meant to be on the ragged edge, why have a ragged edge to begin with? If taxes were limited to 15% or under then you wouldn't have a problem of players optimising it.

[Anaris]

What I said was that everyone else was playing badly, and it's true.

No. It's not.

Sure, some people play badly. But most people just don't think the entire point of BattleMaster is to maximize your military potential.

I once witnessed a Duke reduce his tax rate from 9% to 7% for no reason. That kind of playstyle isn't just uncompetitive, it's completely nonsensical.

Maybe. Or maybe he had some good game-mechanic reason to do it you just didn't know about.

Or, maybe he had a roleplay reason to do it—like the region had been mistreated for a long time, and he felt sorry for them and wanted to reduce their burden.

BattleMaster isn't just a numbers game, and many people who play it don't care about the numbers at all. They care about the characters.

So if they aren't meant to be on the ragged edge, why have a ragged edge to begin with? If taxes were limited to 15% or under then you wouldn't have a problem of players optimising it.

This question misses the point so badly, it's hard to even know how to answer it.

It's not that no region is ever meant to be on the ragged edge. It's that a whole realm, being there all the time, is not meant to happen. And Aurvandil has been paying the price for that, in part, with the troubles you've been having with the regions since the SA realms declared war on you.

[Kwanstein]

No. It's not.

Sure, some people play badly. But most people just don't think the entire point of BattleMaster is to maximize your military potential.

But military potential is a gameplay factor in BM, so not maximizing yourself in that regard is objectively poor play. It's not a matter of roleplaying vs. wargaming - those two things don't overlap here, you can do them both - it's a matter of some players arbitrarily setting their tax rates low and then complaining when they're beaten by people who don't.

Maybe. Or maybe he had some good game-mechanic reason to do it you just didn't know about.

Or, maybe he had a roleplay reason to do it—like the region had been mistreated for a long time, and he felt sorry for them and wanted to reduce their burden.

BattleMaster isn't just a numbers game, and many people who play it don't care about the numbers at all. They care about the characters.

Nah I saw the region's stats and they were all perfect. He didn't roleplay a reason either, and in fact this happened in a realm where literally no one except me roleplayed, and he even disliked my character, so he definitely wasn't there for the roleplaying.

This question misses the point so badly, it's hard to even know how to answer it.

It's not that no region is ever meant to be on the ragged edge. It's that a whole realm, being there all the time, is not meant to happen. And Aurvandil has been paying the price for that, in part, with the troubles you've been having with the regions since the SA realms declared war on you.

Why is it not meant to happen though? If it doesn't interfere with the roleplay then it only matter from a gameplay perspective, and from a gameplay perspective it's the optimal way for a realm to function so there's no reason not to do it.

[Velax]

The issue is that you have assembled a group of people in Aurvandil that play together and have a level of activity that is beyond pretty much every other realm in the game. And it's not a matter of, "Well, why don't you do it too? You must be playing badly." I'm sure that's a very convenient argument for you to make, but the fact is other realms can't do that even if they wanted to, because they'd be slapped with the Inalienable Right on activity so hard their head would spin.

Aurvandil formed with a core group that wanted to reach abnormally high levels of activity, and then obviously attracted more of the same. No other existing realm can do that. And the fact that you did is great for you, I'm sure, but it has a negative effect on the realms around you.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Aurvandil is running every trick in the book to maximise gold output? I'm sorry, but since when has running high tax rates, making lots of estates and frequently running investments been a trick? Or in any shape or form something to be frowned upon? That is all we are doing, it's not trick and it's nothing shady. I don't appreciate these repeated veiled accusations against the way Aurvandil pays it way, it's just a scathing remark for the sake of spite.

Aurvandil is a militaristic society, with an emphasis solely on duty, service and chivalry. If people want to play in a realm with an emphasis on politics, diplomacy and extended periods of peace, well there are dozens of other realms to choose from. And if Aurvandil wins so much, why have we made absolutely no progress in the war against the Veinsormoot? Why did it take us over a year to defeat Madina? At best we win battles, and that is because we pick our battles and we fight only the battles we know we can win, or otherwise will reach a strategic objective in being routed. Even then, we recently lost a battle against Terran (Due to the delay arrival bug) and we used to consecutively lose battles against Madina. The Aurvandilan military is overhyped by people on this forum. It's good, don't get me wrong, but evidently it's not good enough.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

The issue is that you have assembled a group of people in Aurvandil that play together and have a level of activity that is beyond pretty much every other realm in the game.

Rubbish.

And it's not a matter of, "Well, why don't you do it too? You must be playing badly." I'm sure that's a very convenient argument for you to make, but the fact is other realms can't do that even if they wanted to, because they'd be slapped with the Inalienable Right on activity so hard their head would spin.

That isn't even a valid point, firstly it implies we breach the inalienable rights, which we don't, and then secondly it acts as though other realms are restricted in ways we aren't. Convenience in arguments is irrelevant, the point itself is perfectly valid and is used because it's valid not because it's easy. Aurvandil does something perfectly within the game rules and you act as if it's wrong because you can't do it to the same level?  I think they have the colonies for that, where everything is deliberately slower paced for people with less time to be able to do everything.

Aurvandil formed with a core group that wanted to reach abnormally high levels of activity, and then obviously attracted more of the same. No other existing realm can do that. And the fact that you did is great for you, I'm sure, but it has a negative effect on the realms around you.

Rubbish. We're formed by a core group of players who put the effort in to be more active, it was never a want, or demand, or anything close, but a response. A fast paced, high risk war you're heavily invested in tends to motivate people to log on.

[Anaris]

Rubbish.

No, it's quite plainly true to people who have a wide experience of the game.

That isn't even a valid point, firstly it implies we breach the inalienable rights

No, I believe you've misunderstood: He's saying that for any other realm to do it would breach the inalienable rights, because other realms aren't made up entirely of people who want to be that active.

Rubbish. We're formed by a core group of players who put the effort in to be more active, it was never a want, or demand, or anything close, but a response. A fast paced, high risk war you're heavily invested in tends to motivate people to log on.

I think you don't see it for the same reason the fish doesn't notice water and we don't notice the air: it's just natural to you. And it's not that you're wanting it or demanding it of the others—it's that you all share the common desire to be highly active, and the feeling that that is the Right Way To Play, even if you wouldn't put it in those words. Your and Kwanstein's words in this thread make that perfectly clear.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Yes, well these days it seems having players who log on at least once per turn most days of the week is abnormally high rates of activity.

[Velax]

Yes, well these days it seems having players who log on at least once per turn most days of the week is abnormally high rates of activity.

Honestly? It really is. And a realm that has 70 or 80 or 90 or 100% of its players who log on every single turn has a massive advantage over every other realm.

This isn't Battlefield 1942 or CoD or WoW. I've been in high-ranking guilds and clans in those games and the attitude is completely different. If you were listed for a raid or a match, then you damn well turn up or have a very good excuse why not. It's a bit of culture shock when you come to BattleMaster - it still annoys me now when attacks fail because of people's inactivity - but the fact is this game simply isn't intended to be played that way. A realm that does unbalances things for everyone else.

[Anaris]

Yes, well these days it seems having players who log on at least once per turn most days of the week is abnormally high rates of activity.

Yes. Yes, it is.

I really hope that you will come to realize the degree to which the attitudes of the players in Aurvandil is very different from that of those in the rest of the game.

[Indirik]

. And a realm that has 70 or 80 or 90 or 100% of its players who log on every single turn has a massive advantage over every other realm.

If this is really the case, then for every other realm, I have just this to say: tough titties for you. Having 90% of your realm's players log in every turn is in no way, shape, or form in violation of the rules, the social contract, the "spirit of the game", or any other such thing. You lose a war because your realm's nobles don't log in and play? Sorry, but I'm not going to shed any tears for you. Just like I didn't shed any tears for Aurvandil when half their regions went rogue because 6 realms declared war on them when they only had 2 courtiers.

BattleMaster is a PvP game. As such it is highly confrontational, and highly dependent on the skill level and effort expended on the parts of the players involved. Maybe not quite so heavily as FPS style games, but it it still counts. If your team can't be bothered to even play, then you *will* lose. And, IMNSHO, you deserve to lose.

Srsly... of all the possible things to complain about.... "They log in and play every turn! That's totally unfair to everyone else!"  I can't believe you said that...