This should not happen

[Draco Tanos]

I'll be honest I didn't know diplomats could do that, I started playing this game well before diplomats existed. That is however irrelevant since through most of my realm's existence we've had between one and zero diplomats.

So your excuse is that since you've played for awhile you shouldn't have to be aware of any changes to an ever-changing game?  Ignorance, least of all willful ignorance, is no excuse.

I'll get all of my diplomats right on it! Lets see...

Have you ever mentioned to your nobility that the realm requires diplomats and is seeking volunteers?  Of course not, as you willfully let yourself be unaware as to their function.  Try it some time.  Or do it yourself.

False. I have no problem with the fact that the peasants can dislike a realm you're allied with. That's a fun challenge, balancing public opinion with foreign policy, something countries have struggled with throughout history.

I have a problem with them complaining about our relations with a realm that doesn't exist. This has been explained to you at least twice by me and by two other poster yet you keep going back to square one as if we just bashed our heads against the keyboard. At this point I think you either like to argue, hate to be wrong or both.

To make relations with a dead realm revert to neutral? Yeah that would be nice. That way I wont have to waste the time of all zero of my diplomats fixing the moral penalties caused by an alliance with a nonexistent realm until such time as the realm is manually deleted.

So you make a decision that your commoners do not want, and then complain when the realm's territories collapse.  Guess what?  That realm ISN'T dead.  There are likely still inactive characters still hoisting the banner (one of the reasons Tom doesn't have realms auto-deleted). 

How much should one have to think about not having any treaties with a realm that doesn't exist? I in fact think pretty darn carefully about treaties when they pertain to realms that still exist. If you have to think hard about your diplomatic stance with a dead realm, there's something wrong with game mechanics.

Obviously you do not in fact "think pretty darn carefully" about ANY treaties you make or else you would take all factors into consideration.  There is no magic button that makes the peasants forget that you did something that they so vehemently opposed!  Nor should there be.  This isn't something 12 years after the fact.  This isn't something three decades after the fact.  This is something that is WEEKS after the fact.  If you think protests die down that fast in ANY circumstance, you're deluding yourself.

You know what you should do, you should go to the UN and protest the UN membership of Czechoslovakia, see how much support you get. I'm sure a lot of men in white coats will show up to join your protest with a nice warm jacket for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

No, this would be more like protesting the USSR's membership in the UN a month after it began breaking up. 

But thank you for showing you are purely childish and cannot grasp realistic concepts.  Or spelling.

[Gustav Kuriga]

But thank you for showing you are purely childish and cannot grasp realistic concepts.  Or spelling.

Thank you for showing yourself to be just as childish. Please do grow up and avoid personal attacks, especially ones which can easily be explained as english is not everyone's first language.

[Draco Tanos]

How am I childish?  Because he IS refusing to learn any new rules or policies just because he's been here awhile?  Because he refuses to accept corrections (alliance /= federation.  Moral /= morale)?  Or maybe because he wants a quick fix for not understanding how the game works and SHOULD work?

And yeah, another language would be understandable. More so if he didn't go to a college in Philly.

When someone has corrected to the proper word, and/or proper concept, and they refuse to use the correct word that is not a language difficulty or barrier.

[Gustav Kuriga]

So what if he goes to a college in Philly? You do realize how many foreign students go to U.S. universities and colleges, right? Honestly, you have been downright patronizing the whole time. That he doesn't spell one word correctly isn't an excuse to be an ass.

[pcw27]

So your excuse is that since you've played for awhile you shouldn't have to be aware of any changes to an ever-changing game?  Ignorance, least of all willful ignorance, is no excuse.

The excuse is that it's reasonable in an ever changing game to miss a recent change. And you're not one to talk, you thought the collapse of a federated realm caused morale penalties throughout the federation. That's clear proof that you also don't have a complete knowledge of the game rules and yet you try to shame me for not knowing one of them. That's called hypocrisy.

Have you ever mentioned to your nobility that the realm requires diplomats and is seeking volunteers?  Of course not, as you willfully let yourself be unaware as to their function.  Try it some time.  Or do it yourself.

You mean have I ever violated my fellow players inalienable rights? No I haven't. Check the wiki some time it says "When it comes to inalienable rights, "requests" are the same as orders".

I imagine you'll argue that in practice a request made realm wide is an exception, but I'd rather not run my realm that way.

Even if what you're suggesting wasn't a gross violation of the game's most fundamental rules it wouldn't change my argument because what you're suggesting is a huge waste of people's time.

So you make a decision that your commoners do not want, and then complain when the realm's territories collapse.  Guess what?  That realm ISN'T dead.  There are likely still inactive characters still hoisting the banner (one of the reasons Tom doesn't have realms auto-deleted). 

Only there aren't because the realm was reverted to part of Astrum and all citizens became Astrumese.

Obviously you do not in fact "think pretty darn carefully" about ANY treaties you make or else you would take all factors into consideration.  There is no magic button that makes the peasants forget that you did something that they so vehemently opposed!  Nor should there be.  This isn't something 12 years after the fact.  This isn't something three decades after the fact.  This is something that is WEEKS after the fact.  If you think protests die down that fast in ANY circumstance, you're deluding yourself.

In game time is relative. A few weeks is more like several months. I don't remember when exactly Kambriskia reverted itself to Astrum but it's no longer on my saved messages so it's at least four weeks old, which in game is more like four months since a year is only 12 weeks long.

I know from experience that protests die down pretty quickly after a war ends. Point in case the second Iraq war. I haven't heard of a simple anti war protest of any significance for years now, anti war protesting has almost completely shifted to Afghanistan and mind you there are still US troops in Iraq.

No, this would be more like protesting the USSR's membership in the UN a month after it began breaking up. 

Yet another bad analogy.

It would be like if the soviet union completely broke up, its national territory all became nations that are not UN member states and four months later there were non-crackpots protesting Soviet UN membership.

But thank you for showing you are purely childish and cannot grasp realistic concepts.  Or spelling.

Grammar nazing and personal attacks are the ultimate proof of someone on the internet with no argument. You're correct I don't spell that well. I rely on spell check pretty heavily and I don't proof read postings online. That's why Moral vs Morale comes up a lot, since they're both words it doesn't get flagged so it will come out as a typo a lot. I'm sure you don't do everything perfectly either (like for example it took you four tries to properly comprehend my complaints, I'll take reading comprehension over perfect spelling any day). I'm hardly "sndng mssgs dat luk like dis" which people online do all the time.

I'll admit my previous comment to you was a little overboard and for that I apologize, but you have to understand you were derailing my thread and are continuing to derail the thread.  The continued morale penalties are the least of my concerns. I'm much more annoyed that breaking or joining a federation doesn't have an "are you sure" page.

[D`Este]

You mean have I ever violated my fellow players inalienable rights? No I haven't. Check the wiki some time it says "When it comes to inalienable rights, "requests" are the same as orders".

Eh no, you can ask if there are volunteers for certain jobs, same as you can ask for nobles to for example recruit archers, but you can't punish them if they don't. They have the right to refuse it and make their own choice, but at the same time you have the right to ask it.

[pcw27]

The wiki doesn't support the exception you're claiming.


"The basic rule is: Just shut up and stay 100 feet away from any and all inalienable rights, no matter how well-meaning you are."

"If there's a tournament, don't point out how important it is not to go - just shut up. If you would like more traders in your realm, come up with incentives and find out why people don't want to be traders. Don't lament to the realm, come up with a solution, that's your job as ruler or banker.

If some player explicitly asks for your advice, then feel free to give him some. Don't use it as an opportunity to give it to the entire realm.

In general, it is best to stay well clear of these rights, no matter how well-meaning or innocent your intentions. With the sheer number of players with very different backgrounds, there is always a reasonable risk that someone will misinterpret you.  "

[Anaris]

You can't ask Sir Haplessknight if he's willing to switch to Diplomat.

You can say that it would be good if the realm had Diplomats, ask if anyone is willing to switch, and even offer monetary compensation for anyone willing to do so.

[pcw27]

You can't ask Sir Haplessknight if he's willing to switch to Diplomat.

You can say that it would be good if the realm had Diplomats, ask if anyone is willing to switch, and even offer monetary compensation for anyone willing to do so.

If that's a real exception I'd suggest verifying it and adding it to the wiki but the current text seems to directly contradict what you're saying.

[Anaris]

If that's a real exception I'd suggest verifying it and adding it to the wiki but the current text seems to directly contradict what you're saying.

It's not an exception. An exception is when the IR would apply by their regular nature, but because of something specific to the situation, do not.

Here, the IR simply do not apply. You are not attempting to get anyone specific to do something that would violate their IR. You are stating a need of the realm, and asking for volunteers.

It would be just as valid to ask for volunteers to log in 10 minutes before the turn to move to a particular region.

[pcw27]

I suppose clarification is a better word then exception however I still think you're mischaracterizing the rules.

The wiki does not make the distinction you're claiming exists:

"If you would like more traders in your realm, come up with incentives and find out why people don't want to be traders. Don't lament to the realm, come up with a solution, that's your job as ruler or banker."

"If some player explicitly asks for your advice, then feel free to give him some. Don't use it as an opportunity to give it to the entire realm."

It doesn't matter if you make a request to an individual player or make a request to the realm, it's a violation either way.

[egamma]

pcw27,
Please understand that Anaris is a game developer, in Tom's inner circle, and has been playing this game for over half a decade. He knows what he's talking about.

[Penchant]

pcw27,
Please understand that Anaris is a game developer, in Tom's inner circle, and has been playing this game for over half a decade. He knows what he's talking about.

I agree with you. What I don't get is why the devs and Tom are so against clarification to prevent misunderstandings. I would understand not clarifying everything, but if its been misunderstood and is easy to, instead of constantly having people needed to be corrected on a one-to-one basis why not easily clarify it for everyone.

[pcw27]

pcw27,
Please understand that Anaris is a game developer, in Tom's inner circle, and has been playing this game for over half a decade. He knows what he's talking about.

Then the wiki is in need of an update. I've been playing for five years as well and to the best of my knowledge the wiki has always said such messages are a violation.

[Tom]

If that's a real exception I'd suggest verifying it and adding it to the wiki but the current text seems to directly contradict what you're saying.

I do not have a link, but asking for volunteers is something I have confirmed multiple times as being a correct way of handling things.