This should not happen

[Tom]

I agree with you. What I don't get is why the devs and Tom are so against clarification to prevent misunderstandings.

We are not. What I am strongly opposed to is discussing a thousand hypothetical "what if" scenarios. The decision to stop doing that was put in place after lots and lots of that bogged down the mailing list, and the variants of "what if X, but with Z instead of Y" started to become ridiculous.

[Chenier]

If it doesn't target anyone, and it doesn't incite through fear of reprisals, then it's fine to state that the realm could use more infantry, or that the realm could use more courtiers.

Inversely, though, saying that "the realm needs less priests", when there is only one in the realm, wouldn't be fine, because that'd just be a veiled order to change class targeted at an individual.

[pcw27]

We are not. What I am strongly opposed to is discussing a thousand hypothetical "what if" scenarios. The decision to stop doing that was put in place after lots and lots of that bogged down the mailing list, and the variants of "what if X, but with Z instead of Y" started to become ridiculous.

Fair enough but right now the wiki directly contradicts what you're saying. Would you mind terribly if it said  something like"It is ok to mention a shortage of certain class/troop types as long as there are no threats of punishments or offers of bribes"?

Right now I wouldn't make such a statement even if it is permitted because I wouldn't want to get flagged or make my realm mates angry.

[Anaris]

Perhaps what we need is not so much an addition to the Inalienable Rights page, but a separate page, along the lines of "Commentaries on the Inalienable Rights", linked from the main IR page. There, we can aggregate official information from threads such as these, as well as Magistrate rulings and discussions on the subject.

This would ensure that the information is readily available to those who go looking, but does not muddle the primary purpose of the IR page itself.

[Penchant]

Fair enough but right now the wiki directly contradicts what you're saying. Would you mind terribly if it said  something like"It is ok to mention a shortage of certain class/troop types as long as there are no threats of punishments or offers of bribes"?

Right now I wouldn't make such a statement even if it is permitted because I wouldn't want to get flagged or make my realm mates angry.

You can offer "bribes" or benefits, just not punish others for not doing it.

[Penchant]

We are not. What I am strongly opposed to is discussing a thousand hypothetical "what if" scenarios. The decision to stop doing that was put in place after lots and lots of that bogged down the mailing list, and the variants of "what if X, but with Z instead of Y" started to become ridiculous.

I am not asking for a thousand clarifications based on hypotheticals but clarifications on things that are commonly misunderstood, such as this, also you said you have confirmed it is allowed to make a request to the realm at large with no punishments, but that was likely on the forum to one person, not on the announcements. Even if it was the announcements they are deleted eventually, but as you have stated, the wiki is the only place where it is permanent. The fact that you have needed to clarify several times before this should show that somewhere easy to see and permanent should be used to clarify.

[Tom]

You can offer "bribes" or benefits, just not punish others for not doing it.

More specifically, you can give people a choice. The IR are all about making sure that nobody has a limited gameplay experience in some core areas of the game. If you offer up an option, that's totally fine with me.

For example, some realms make it so that they say "we need more cavalry. If you want to recruit cavalry, tell the general and he'll send you gold so you can afford it." That's totally fine with me. You are not telling anyone what to recruit, but you will probably get more people recruiting cavalry this way.

[pcw27]

Say how does that work with Aurvandil supposedly banning all religion? Do they accomplish it by not allowing any temples or open preaching?

[vonGenf]

Say how does that work with Aurvandil supposedly banning all religion? Do they accomplish it by not allowing any temples or open preaching?

There is no inalienable right concerning religion.

[Eldargard]

"If you would like more traders in your realm, come up with incentives and find out why people don't want to be traders. Don't lament to the realm, come up with a solution, that's your job as ruler or banker."

If I say to the realm, "We are having severe diplomatic issues and could really use a few Diplomats to help alleviate these issues. If you are willing to aid the realm in this capacity, please let the Council know so we can help coordinate your efforts." it sounds a lot like lamenting to me. In fact, mentioning any thing to the realm or individual players that involves "Unfortunately  we need more of CLASS/UNIT" or anything equivalent is clearly prohibited.

At the same time, offering incentive is OK. So saying, "From now on Diplomats of the realm will be granted a place on the Privileged People Council and granted 500 gold at the start of their career. If you are already a Diplomat, let the Privileged People Council know and you will be granted this boon retroactively." seems completely in line.

Based on the guideline above, mentioning a need or desire (which can easily be taken as lamenting) is not cool. If it is okay to make such comments/request to a group of nobles, then the wording of that sentence, in my opinion, needs to be updated.

[Tom]

As with all things social, linguistic, etc. it's a bit of a question of where to draw the line.

There are an infinite number of ways to say "we need more diplomats", so we can not possible ennumerate those that are fine and those that are not. "lament" per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lament is more strongly than just saying. It is "strongly" or "demonstratively". If you post "we need more diplomats" once, that's not lamenting. If you post it twice a day for weeks, that is lamenting. But there is no precise number where it suddenly becomes lamenting.

[Eldargard]

All very true. Which puts the act of mentioning the need for a class or unit type into a grey area. That combined with the "Do not touch with a 100' pole" piece makes me think that it would be best not to be making any such statements. I certainly do not see how these pieces end up meaning "Go right ahead and ask people to switch and tell everyone why the realm is suffering for the lack. As long as it is realm wide, no one is singled out and no one can prove that someone was punished for ignoring the pleas and comments."

I do agree that there is little to know chance that any wording will not leave room for conflicting opinions. That is so very true. Even if you revised things there would still be grey areas. That is why the wiki stresses that one should just stay away from these topics entirely. I can not see why someone who does their best to respect the IR are given a hard time for it. I do not see why the game would be built in a way that would cause a realm lacking a particular class would be hindered. So far I recall (perhaps erroneously) people being told to get traders if they need to buy food and to get diplomats if they do not want to be penalized by their populations preferences. It seems to contradict with the idea presented by the IR.

I admit, however, that I am probably more than a little ignorant though and that mu understanding is lacking based on my limited information base. This is just how things look from the perspective of one player reading the forums now and then.

[pcw27]

All very true. Which puts the act of mentioning the need for a class or unit type into a grey area. That combined with the "Do not touch with a 100' pole" piece makes me think that it would be best not to be making any such statements.

Which is exactly what I thought.

[Chenier]

There's the 100-foot pole, and then there's the 1000000-foot pole.

You can't tell someone to change classes. But you can say the realm would benefit from having more of a specific class. You need to reason a little.

[Eldargard]

There's the 100-foot pole, and then there's the 1000000-foot pole.

You can't tell someone to change classes. But you can say the realm would benefit from having more of a specific class. You need to reason a little.

That is just it. Reason can lead you to multiple conclusions based on your interpretations of lamenting. When I wonder if my comment might be considered such, could see a person simply deciding not to make the comment. It does not really matter how long of a pole you poke a bear with if you are told not to poke the bear. All the same, you guys have made it very clear to the limited number of people who visit this forum and read these threads what is acceptable in this regard. I just feel bad for the majority who may be needlessly hampering themselves in an attempt to respect the IR as written.