Accusations of abuse and general harassment

[Chenier]

Yeah, that's it.

My point was that BM has a presumption that you shouldn't penalize people for their family. No, that's not even remotely SMA. Neither is giving female characters equality. We do it because it's essential for the game to be fun.

IMHO, yes, we should force players to trust players who have played other characters that their characters distrust.

As Penchant said, that's not what the rules actually said. I have seen people punished for family ties, I have had characters punished for family ties, and I have punished characters for family ties. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that Tom confirmed on these forums that it was justified to act this way with such notable families as the Solari, the Chénier, etc. You aren't punishing the other just because he had a no-name noble in some enemy realm. You are punishing for what the family has a great reputation of doing. Perhaps even against one of your own family members.

And afaik, women had a lot more rights in the middle ages than in the renaissance. Blood was what mattered. There were many queens and duchesses.

[Vellos]

As Penchant said, that's not what the rules actually said. I have seen people punished for family ties, I have had characters punished for family ties, and I have punished characters for family ties. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that Tom confirmed on these forums that it was justified to act this way with such notable families as the Solari, the Chénier, etc. You aren't punishing the other just because he had a no-name noble in some enemy realm. You are punishing for what the family has a great reputation of doing. Perhaps even against one of your own family members.

And afaik, women had a lot more rights in the middle ages than in the renaissance. Blood was what mattered. There were many queens and duchesses.

....

I was next to 100% sure Tom actually said the opposite.

And even if he has said that– it doesn't make sense. I'd really like to hear him explain that position. The idea that players are going to be able to separate between "family ties" and "player habits" seems untenable to me.

[Bedwyr]

....

I was next to 100% sure Tom actually said the opposite.

And even if he has said that– it doesn't make sense. I'd really like to hear him explain that position. The idea that players are going to be able to separate between "family ties" and "player habits" seems untenable to me.

What I remember Tom saying is the only time insta-bans were permissible is if the same family had several (not one, two, or even three) characters join and commit treason or something similar to the point where it was actually griefing.  That said, treating someone with suspicion, including giving them less sensitive military assignments, seems quite reasonable.

[egamma]

I have been playing with Yangfan in D'Hara for 881 days, and I must say, I've never seen him treat someone unfairly. I will also say the same thing about Aaron, although I haven't played nearly as long, just a few months, and his character was inactive and is now paused in Oritolon.

It's a real shame that these players couldn't have put forth an effort to mend fences between them, on their own.

[Vellos]

What I remember Tom saying is the only time insta-bans were permissible is if the same family had several (not one, two, or even three) characters join and commit treason or something similar to the point where it was actually griefing.  That said, treating someone with suspicion, including giving them less sensitive military assignments, seems quite reasonable.

No, I don't think it's quite reasonable to decide that a new character deserves indefinite drudgery duty, despite his liege's contrary assignment, because you regard the player as engaged in semi-OOC spying. That's not reasonable.

If you have a reason to believe that that specific character was spying, sure. But it's not permissible to just look at the last name (or User ID, same thing) and decide that someone deserves different (especially negative) IC treatment: even though that is a very medieval thing to do.

I'll reiterate I don't think that there has been an egregious offense here deserving of any particularly stiff penalty– I concur with what many others have said, that the players in question really should have been able to sort this out on their own. But I do not think the Magistrates should set a precedent that even hints at permitting people to enforce OOC friendships/hostilities via IC behavior– and Yangfan has not been in any sense ambiguous about the fact that he does regard Aaron as playing unfairly, and that does influence his actions.

If players are behaving unfairly, an OOC ban or a Magistrates case is appropriate: not an attempt at IC vindictiveness.

[GoldPanda]

One point that's puzzled me in all this:

If Aaron is supposedly this grand spymaster, controlling a web of spies across multiple continents and bringing in information from all corners without any trace...

...why the hell would he create a character himself in a realm to spy in it? Openly, announcing himself to the realm? And if he's spying, who's he reporting to?

Furthermore, just by being in the realm and army, he can see quite a lot of info that could be highly militarily useful. If you really thought he was spying on you right now, why not just get him banned?

I believe I explained this in an earlier message (but it was semi-hidden in a quoted post). Enri and his realm-mates rooted out Thomas Solari's power base in Carelia and basically chased him out of Atamara. Enri's reasoning is that House Solari does not care about a realm unless they are in power in that realm. So there is no benefit working for any realm until they get empowered somewhere. The fastest way to do that would be to join a realm that they have a grudge against, and then sell military secrets to one of its enemies, in exchange for "future considerations" from that enemy. In other words, Enri was saying that, Remi is probably a spy because the Solaris no longer have a power base on Atamara. They will want to rebuild one so that they can get back to being spymasters instead of grunts. And since they probably have no interest in helping CE, then they must be against CE.

Banning Remi outright would be against the rules OOCly, and against Enri's own particular sense of honor ICly.

[GoldPanda]

In response to Lyman's comments, I would like to clarify something:

I have never, ICly or OOCly, even implied that there was any OOC component to the Solari's spy ring. As far as I could tell, everything was done ICly and no game rules were broken. That is why I did not report it. I felt that there was nothing to report.

However, why does it have to be black or white? It doesn't have to fall into either "completely against the rules" and "not against the rules are therefore completely okay". Why can't I say "this is not against the rules, but I believe its net contribution to the game is negative, and that you should stop it"?

[GoldPanda]

(Sorry about all these messages. I am replying as I catch up. I can consolidate my posts if people feel that it's annoying.)

My argument is that Yangfan's opinions about Aaron certainly pre-exist Remi's arrival in CE. That he has almost explicitly said in those messages that the orders for Remi are OOC motivated.

In response to Lyman's claim that my OOC opinions about Aaron predate Remi's arrival in CE, of course that is true. What can I do about it? The incidents that soured my opinion of Aaron occurred long before Remi was created as a character. I'm not a time traveler. :p

The fact of the matter is, Enri learned of Thomas's nasty spy ring ICly before I knew anything about it OOCly. It took me completely by surprise. However, Enri's hatred for the Solari family definitely predates my OOC dissatisfaction with Aaron. Spying on him was enough reason for Enri to hate the Solaris. It took me several more incidents over the course of years to develop my mild objections to Aaron. I say mild and note that I never tracked Aaron down and initiated contact with him. He came to my realm and initiated contact with me. Only then did I express my honest opinions in the hopes that he would be moved and change his behavior. Perhaps my mistake was responding to the OOC message at all.

[GoldPanda]

I'm on the road, so pardon the brevity of my reply. In response to Yangfan's request, I'll clarify the comment on escalation. From my perspective, Yangfan was grinding a personal axe and privately making an ass of himself. I felt like my character was being put in a poorly constructed IC purgatory as a result. So, I endeavored to return the favor and make Enri's life as miserable as possible through protocol. Constantly requesting orders would just be the beginning. Next, I'd have started asking the marshals for orders and bringing in the rest of the chain of command. Then I'd change classes and wander to the front, just to cause some grief over my super secret spy plans. Stupid and childish? You bet. But warranted, IMHO, for someone who's awfully fond of accusing me of unsporting play—based entirely on an incorrect assumption of who I am or how I play—while dishing it out himself.

But I'd hardly enjoy it, and it would work against my own interets. I'd rather that this whole public spat result in a reboot, where I have a chance to play in a realm and with another player that I've rather liked from afar for awhile.

Aaron, I still don't see how this is going to make me "lose badly". In fact your escalation plan seems like a Christmas gift for Enri. Harassing the rest of the command chain would have just angered more powerful nobles, who would be mad at Remi, not Enri. And as soon as Remi was north of Eaglin, he would have been banned for flagrant disregard of orders.

And so far, Remi has done none of those things.

So what was I supposed to think? Was your threat to "escalate the matter" and make me "lose badly" a threat to deploy this convoluted scheme, or go straight to the magistrates? If you consider both threats as possible interpretations, which one have you actually carried out?

[Bedwyr]

No, I don't think it's quite reasonable to decide that a new character deserves indefinite drudgery duty, despite his liege's contrary assignment, because you regard the player as engaged in semi-OOC spying. That's not reasonable.

No one said anything about infinite drudgery duty.  In the first place, monster hunting is a necessary task even in big wars.  In the second, putting someone on monster hunting detail until they prove themselves is a hell of a lot different than "infinite drudgery duty".  The liege's assignment is completely beside the point.  That could have sparked an interesting power struggle, but has no relation to anything OOC.

[GoldPanda]

And finally, here was my thought process during the whole incident:

Aaron and I knew each other by reputation by now. So when he approached me with an OOC message after joining CE, I thought that I could engage him in meaningful dialog regarding his past behavior, some of which I felt was not rule-breaking but detrimental to the game. (I'm willing to elaborate on this if necessary, but Aaron is not the one on trial here.) I suppose I got a little "testy" after Aaron refused to concede any ground rhetorically. I felt the conversation going in a non-constructive direction, so I cut it off. I chalked it up to "oh well, I tried" and considered the matter closed.

This was a completely separate matter from what Enri was considering doing to Remi. You are free to not believe me, but I've been playing this old bastard long enough that he has a mind of his own now. I'm not saying that there is zero-overlap between Enri and Yangfan as individuals, but there are some things where there can be no cross-influence and no compromise. This is one of them. Enri was going to get some amount of payback out of this Solari whelp. He could feel it in his bones. I personally thought it was childish and felt bad for Remi.

Even if Remi came to CE bearing enough gifts and intel to make Enri forget past grievances, I still would have talked to Aaron about my dissatisfaction with him. On the other hand, even if Aaron convinced me that I was in the wrong, Enri would still have sent Remi away from the front lines. Those are two completely separate, different, distinct channels. I should not be punished because they happen to coincide. If you punish me, then you better punish every other player who ever ICly attacked a noble whose player he disliked, or ever ICly helped a realm because he liked the players there. I agree that it looks bad on the surface. I challenge anyone to say that this does not happen on a daily basis.

I figured that I've been playing BM long enough that I could be given the benefit of doubt on this, both by Aaron and by the Magistrates. Apparently I am mistaken.

Aaron, if you had filed a Magistrate complaint soon after our OOC conversation, I would have conceded that I was being unfriendly and apologized to you. I would have thought that you were being overly sensitive, but the apology would have been sincere.

If you had came to me with politeness instead of insults after Remi received Enri's orders, I would have been happy to explain Enri's IC reasoning, AND what hoops Remi has to jump through to obtain his trust. You probably would have been able to convince me that I should avoid even the appearance of IC-OOC mixing, and we could have worked out some sort of compromise or win-win situation.

Instead, you jumped to conclusions and assumed that I was abusing my position. You sent me repeated IC requests for orders, laced with OOC insults. (Not the best way to get your point across.) I ignored the OOC insults and had Enri repeat his orders. When I did not respond to your further harassing messages (because Enri was wounded, and I was busy with work for a few days after he recovered), you threatened to "escalate the matter" and promised that I "will lose badly". When I called you out on it publicly, you asked, I quote, "are you that stupid?" You then dragged me in front of the Magistrates, and here we are.

With all due respect, I believe you owe me an apology.

[Fury]

How about both apologize and we call this done? Aaron started off with a respectful and friendly PM after all.

[Penchant]

How about both apologize and we call this done? Aaron started off with a respectful and friendly PM after all.

+1

[GoldPanda]

Fair enough. I apologize to Aaron for being a jerk to him. That was unwarranted.

The IC conflict is a separate matter, however. If Aaron was a new player, I would be more proactive in giving OOC advice. But Aaron has been playing BM for a while. I'm quite comfortable with saying "your character has a problem, deal with it". If Remi doesn't like his assignment, maybe he could try talking to Enri.

[Solari]

Fair enough. I apologize to Aaron for being a jerk to him. That was unwarranted.

The IC conflict is a separate matter, however. If Aaron was a new player, I would be more proactive in giving OOC advice. But Aaron has been playing BM for a while. I'm quite comfortable with saying "your character has a problem, deal with it". If Remi doesn't like his assignment, maybe he could try talking to Enri.

I'll try this, and WOULD HAVE tried this, had it seemed possible that something positive could result. Because showering me with negativity based on very, very faulty assumptions and then telling me that you "really aren't interested in anything (I) have to say" didn't inspire confidence. I made it clear fom the beginning that I was willing to work with you to correct this misperception. I'm very eager to put all of this behind me if you're willing to meet me halfway.