Caelum

[Arundel]

*bows*  I do truly wish you stayed with the Church as Henry.  Would've been fun.  Provided he stopped the whole garbage of trying to drag it to defend Melhed and their blood cultists.

Meh, it was just a phase. The Church was weak though, being led by secular and pragmatic people: Henry hated that. Look to Quintarianism in Rio, and it's phenomenally involved with the politics. As a side note, the whole "since we know you don't have a Church all the way down there, we're appointing you the officially sanctioned apostate of our religion. You have to pay 99 gold a month, or you'll owe us money and never be able to leave" was total crap, and for that reason alone I'll never return.

[Chenier]

It is.

And this appointment is going to enrage Alaron after a Thunder Strike Judge banned him from Astrum back on Dwilight.

Edit: On the topic of dissent? I enjoy dissent when it has a purpose. I don't like it when it's "just because" - seeing as this situation in the realm is (in my eyes) the former rather than the latter, I'm enjoying reading it so far.

That guy got to be a judge on Dwilight... with that name...?

[Draco Tanos]

Wasn't me doing it and it was more a "make life harder" thing.  The one mostly responsible for the vast majority of that is gone now though.

As for the Church not defending Melhed?  They were in a stronger position militarily (and were trying to use in an attempt to push Thalmarkin around for awhile) and, frankly, how could Victus support a realm that harbors a religion that practices blood sacrifices?  Know another religion that did that?  Blood Cult.

Rio is also a realm that had pretty much no religious influence there anymore.  OG has had Daishi, OGF, and the CoH, in addition to Esta..whateverism, Hemaism, and the Bloodspeakers lapping at their borders.

Easy to claim a religion is stronger when it has no competition.

And Chenier, it was a different member of the family.  Ekirt Thunder Strike.  Still judge of Astrum.

[Chenier]

Seems like all new realms generate their heap of drama. Did planned colonies always do as much?

[Draco Tanos]

More so when they're comprised of nobles of various realms and faiths.

[Naidraug]

And yet the people involved OOCly say otherwise.  Funny that.  Perhaps it is more that the leader of Sint at the time was claiming such to deflect any 'weakness' in her position onto others?  Though I have little doubt that the northern realms were vehemently opposed to Sint establishing mini-theocracies anywhere.
On the contrary, Victus only acted as such when Sintians began making demands or attempted to issue ultimatums, all of which were then shared with the rulers of Thalmarkin, Old Grehk, and Nothoi.  And all of which quickly led to Sint backpedaling.

-Yes at the time I remember the only objection Sint made was when I made the mistake and included two of their lands as part of Caelum.  But there was not much opinion given. The Pontifex at the time said it wanted either a theocracy or a monarchy under hemaism. All realms said no. Sint went quiet.

And no, Victus never said titles did not matter.  He said how people view the titles outside the realm does not matter.  If they want to believe themselves superior to the leader of Caelum, they are welcome to and in for a rude awakening.  Honestly though?  He would -love- to change the title.  In the future.  When Caelum is rebuilt and they truly deserve to declare themselves an empire.
Because it does not.  The treaty was for the creation of the realm, not beyond that.  Again, judging from the words of two of its creators, this is a correct interpretation of the treaty.

That is of course OOCly speaking, you ask Scherzer he will confirm this. Finan does not know about this.

Victus never agreed to the treaty.  In fact, he complained to Michael that it was poorly written and full of loopholes.  Was essentially told to grin and bear it until the realm was created.
As legitimate as any lord in Caelum is.  So, when Ralina, Moonglum, and everyone else step down, they'll finally have the right to demand the same of others (not that Moonglum is causing trouble.  He's actually offered Victus his full support).

Well, the treaty could have changed and improved during the time you were in Sint preparing everything.  About the misspelling I´ll have to start triple checking my official writings now... 

And considering that, at least in Finan´s case (don´t know the others) he was appointed by a Duke in Nothoi, he has authority to do it. If the region changed back to Nothoi we would still be the lord of his region.

The Dukes support him.  That's a damned 'right to rule' right there.
He is ruler.  He has all the 'claim' he needs.  Everyone in the realm has been appointed by a 'foreign power'.  Caelum isn't Sintian.
Untrue.  Completely untrue, actually.  It's just that he asks the leading nobles of the realm and those he trusts.  Can't imagine why he wouldn't trust your character...
Excluding the fact that he has time and again said it will be rewarded to a noble that proves him or herself in their honor, loyalty, and duty to Caelum, of course.  And he's actually kept every word he has made so far.  Funny that.

Yes but the dukes support him based on the treaty. If he trows away the treaty, all the claim and support he has is gone.

With all the nobles being lords, every one should be consulted. If he is truly giving the duchy to someone, he should step down as duke at least, leave it empty to award to the noble. But until then yest it does look like he is taking away power from Moonglum who is a priest from a religion Victus doesn´t like, combined with the fact that he created a new duchy in Heen to give to Moonglum instead of stepping down and granting him the duchy.

And the treaty no longer has any force on us, no.  It was for the creation of the realm and nothing more.  Unfortunately it was Sint's own actions that caused its rushing.

You are not entirely right, all the authority that exists in the realm, exists because of it. So it has force on you all. And considering how much he claimed that the treaty should be followed and everything while he was on Sint, to damn it  now it is odd.

[Indirik]

int started making plans for their own colony right after our war with the Daimons without discussing it with the other realms in the North. Considering that most of the deciding battles that led to the victory against the Daimons were fought in the lands of Old Grehk and Thalmarkin, dont you think it was kind of insulting towards your neighbours who were instrumental in mankinds victory to not consult with them first? To me, that was very presumptious of Sint to think they have a right to make plans with the recovered lands without consulting their neighbours.

That could be. But that doesn't change the fact that Sint was forced to accept the treaty to create the new realm. The reasons behind that aren't really germane to the outcome. Sint was forced to accept the treaty, and they acquiesced.

The realm was formed and the nobles were appointed accordingly in the spirit of the treaty from what I can tell. We never stipulated in the treaty that the realm could not make changes once it had established itself and we never mentioned anything about hindering the realm from establishing additional duchies. To me, the treaty was a stepping stone to establish the realm which was done in good spirits and cooperation of the realms who participated in signing it.

If that is what you intended, then that's what you should have written. But it's not. The treaty uses very specific language to define the structure of the realm. "The realm will have this", "The realm will have that", etc. There is no wiggle room, or qualifications on any of the requirements.

In fact, reading the treaty again now, Victus broke the treaty even before the realm was founded, by selecting which lords were to be given which regions. According to the treaty, this power was reserved for the dukes of the individual duchies.

It is not a law abiding document that outlines every single thing the realm can and cannot do. To presume so, is frankly, quite stupid.

No one ever claimed that it was a document that should be followed, verbatim, for all of time. However, to discard the treaty from the start, and not even bother implementing the system defined in the treaty, is ... unseemly. It is disrespectful of the founding realms, and the treaty itself, from which all authority in Caelum derives. It should have been implemented as laid out, and the treaty then declared fulfilled. At that point, we could go whatever direction we wanted, without having to worry about anything.

[Geronus]

That was what I tried to argue IC.

[Indirik]

And yet the people involved OOCly say otherwise.

As far as IC goes, that's irrelevant. OOC intentions and claims have no bearing on IC actions of the characters. If they wanted the treaty to be a general guideline, they should have written it that way,

Perhaps it is more that the leader of Sint at the time was claiming such to deflect any 'weakness' in her position onto others?  Though I have little doubt that the northern realms were vehemently opposed to Sint establishing mini-theocracies anywhere.

It is possible that Sint's ruler made it appear more forceful than it was. But as nbeither you nor I were on the ruler's channel at the time, neither of us can really say that with any certainty.

On the contrary, Victus only acted as such when Sintians began making demands or attempted to issue ultimatums, all of which were then shared with the rulers of Thalmarkin, Old Grehk, and Nothoi.  And all of which quickly led to Sint backpedaling.

I did say that it was not without provocation, didn't I?

And yes, I know that Victus was sharing carefully chosen letters with various rulers. I shared some, too, along with explanations, and was told something like "Thank you very much for clarifying the situation."

After all, if Victus wanted war, it wouldn't have been too hard to arrange.  He constantly tried warning Sintians that they're widely despised and to change their ways (in nicer terms) and even attempted to redirect his old friend, the new leader of Sint, to be more careful with his words.  His time in Sint, however, has twice-over only reminded him of the dangers they pose to civilized lands.

Indeed they do. You should nuke them from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

Because it does not.  The treaty was for the creation of the realm, not beyond that.  Again, judging from the words of two of its creators, this is a correct interpretation of the treaty.

No, not the creators. The players that play the creators. That's an OOC opinion of their intentions after the fact. It ahs no bearing on the IC actions of our characters. Or at least it shouldn't. We have to deal with things IC the way they are presented IC, and not the way we OOC intended them to be interpreted. That's how misunderstandings happen, and generate the conflict upon which the game thrives.

Victus never agreed to the treaty.  In fact, he complained to Michael that it was poorly written and full of loopholes.  Was essentially told to grin and bear it until the realm was created.

And... so what? If Victus signs a treaty, will the next Grand Prince be able to just unilaterally declare it null and void because he didn't sign it? That would make for one hell of a screwy diplomatic situation if we all did that.

As legitimate as any lord in Caelum is.  So, when Ralina, Moonglum, and everyone else step down, they'll finally have the right to demand the same of others

Start from the top. Let's get ourselves a true ruler, selected by the people of Caelum, and not a foreign interloper, and do it right. ;)

The Dukes support him.  That's a damned 'right to rule' right there.

Indeed it is.

Untrue.  Completely untrue, actually.  It's just that he asks the leading nobles of the realm and those he trusts.  Can't imagine why he wouldn't trust your character...

Because he's only interested in hearing the opinions of the people that already support him? What's a Senate without someone to bring a little dissent, and live things up? Rather than simply ignore Ralina and hope she goes away, Victus should be trying to win over to his point of view. So far, there really hasn't been anything too bad between them that would prevent it.

Excluding the fact that he has time and again said it will be rewarded to a noble that proves him or herself in their honor, loyalty, and duty to Caelum, of course.  And he's actually kept every word he has made so far.

He hasn't really given his word on much of anything yet, to prove he can keep it. There's also nothing that would stop him from creating a new duchy later one, when the situation merited it. Instead, if we wait until we find some war hero to take the duchy, we'll be waiting for *years*, since we're pretty much going to be allied to most of the continent. Which is probably what Victus is counting on. That way he doesn't have to give it up.

Up to now, Victus has just done whatever he wants, without consulting the realm. He's formed a Senate now, but he didn't tell the realm he formed a Senate, what its purpose is, who's in it, how to get in it... It's like a giant information vacuum. I mean, we have a realm of 17 nobles. 11 of us are region lords. You can't even put us all in the Senate message group, so it's a bit gimped. Given the formative state of the realm, and the fact that at pretty much 3/4ths of us are either lords or council members, trying to do things via a message group is guaranteed to disenfranchise a significant portion of the nobles that deserve to be in it.

Some are calling for it, yes.  Their words will fall on deaf ears.  We are not a democracy.

No, we're a tyranny. ;)

Upset when she realizes her true masters, that being Sint, will have less influence than she imagined they would.

Ralina is under no illusions as to how Sint is viewed outside their own realm. Pretty much everyone in Sint knows. That's what makes life so much more exciting. Skulking around behind the scenes, being nice to everyone, and then winning simply because everyone else got bored and quit, and you're the only one left? What fun is that. We need conflict. We need war. We need something to liven this continent up. Let's get the wars going!

FWIW - If my character had survived the third invasion, he would have been leading the charge to exterminate Sint. Alas, he did in one of the final huge battle of the invasion, and his realm was eventually torn apart by political dissent, and finally wiped out and blighted in the fourth invasion. Their capital now  lost forever under the waves of the Enotian Sea...

[Indirik]

That was what I tried to argue IC.

A couple people have tried to do that. But that line of reasoning is a direct threat to Victus' iron-fisted dominance over the realm, so it can't be tolerated.

[Geronus]

He does not seem to be too big on dissent, does he? That Judge is a piece of work too  ;)

[Indirik]

What Victus is doing makes sense for a ruler consolidating his power base: Marginalize and isolate those who you think might be a threat to you. So I can see why he's doing it. Still, it makes for a boring game when you surround yourself with people who agree with you on most everything. If Victus manages to oust Ralina from the realm, I will be a bit disappointed. A realm needs its dissenters to keep things interesting.

I always had to give Peri credit for keeping Bowie in Morek in order to keep an eye on him, and keep things going in Morek. I don't think I could have put up with it.

[Eirikr]

I mean, we have a realm of 17 nobles. 11 of us are region lords. You can't even put us all in the Senate message group, so it's a bit gimped.

You can't? I didn't think there was a recipient cap on a message list? There isn't one in Atamara, at least.

[Draco Tanos]

Yep, there's a limit of nobles to message groups, apparently.  Something I never noticed before.

[Draco Tanos]

In fact, reading the treaty again now, Victus broke the treaty even before the realm was founded, by selecting which lords were to be given which regions. According to the treaty, this power was reserved for the dukes of the individual duchies.

Right.  Nothing like reading into the treaty things that aren't there.  Next thing we know, you'll be claiming that since it doesn't mention maintaining records, we can't have a wiki page.  It doesn't mention that we can create laws, so we can't have any of those either.  Oh!  It lists the titles as Ruler, Judge, Banker, and General!  Better go default to those names too!

Honestly, realms are GREAT without dissenters stirring up garbage every chance they get.  So long as they have a focus.