Author Topic: Religion Feature Request: Declare Realms Good/Evil  (Read 8726 times)

Vellos

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Title: Declare Realms Good/Evil

Summary: Allow religions to declare realms good or evil, with some limited in-game effects tied to priests and followers.

Details:
Religions would have a menu where they could label religions as "Faithful" "Ignore" or "Evil." Only realms with at least one elder of the religion can be declared faithful.

This feature has two different, unrelated sections, described separately below:

Priestly Effects:
In "Faithful" realms, priests' preaching would be more effective– and especially priest' ability to laud that realm would be stronger, while ability to badmouth that realm would be weaker. The opposite would be true for Evil realms. Essentially, declaring a realm Faithful or Evil under this system does NOTHING... except what priests can make happen. But when priests work in coordination with local religious authorities, the continental religious system, etc, they are more effective. Thus a religion can't just blasé name a realm evil and expect to be able to hurt it: but a religion can name a realm evil and then, if that realm has lots of followers, its priests become deadlier weapons. This would incentivize realms to try and spread their religion to other realms, to try and get elders in a religion... but would also incentivize realms to be faithful. Realms want good courtiers– priests with a "Faithful Realm" bonus would also be useful. So even realms without warlike aims have an incentive to try and get religious support, and to try and avoid losing it.

Direct Effects:
These effects could be left out, or, as I prefer, in addition to the above effects. When a religion declares a realm evil, its conversion rates in that realm should fall– but its followers in that realm will be less loyal to that realm. In other words, a religion has a balancing act: by naming a realm evil, they can hurt it... but they will also lose their own followers. If a religion worked with several priests and, say, an invading realm of the same religion, this could be worthwhile because of stacking bonuses. But if a religion miscalculated its strength, it could be facing significantly declining numbers of followers in the target realm.

In Faithful realms, there would be an opposite effect. Conversion rates would rise in realms named faithful, and religious followers would be more loyal. Realms and religions benefit from a friendly relationship. Hence realms and religions have an incentive to try and capture each other's positions of influence.

Benefits:
Priest Effects:
Allows religions to conduct formalized diplomacy with game-mechanics effects, but without having some kind of automatic kill button. Religion can be used to support or weaken the actions of players, but can never substitute for them. Religions would gain power as they gain priests, especially vis-a-vis realms, as the more priests means the more people who can run around maintaining regions in faithful realms, or punishing unfaithful realms. This encourages player-level decision making and empowers the priest class without empowering the individual priest. A priest can't just up and do these things on their own: a religion does these things which affect the effectiveness of priests.

Direct Effects:
This would be similar to the peasant-effects of diplomacy now. Religion was a much bigger part of peasant lives than realm was in the Middle Ages. This fills a massive gap of "passive religio-political sentiment." Such a thing did exist, and should exist, in however small a form.

Possible Exploits:
Priestly Effects:
I am unable to think of any. It would not be exploiting the feature to make an extremely friendly state religion. But simultaneously, state religions would not enjoy the feature to its fullness. This system incentivizes converting your neighbors to your own religion, so that you can send your priests to hurt them if need be.

Direct Effects:
Again, it doesn't seem readily exploitable. It can't suddenly award someone a position. My only concern would be the fairness of stacked effects. If a realm has positive priestly effects, high conversion rates, and positive direct effects, and state-funded religion, it could simply make that realm fiendishly efficient. We might be okay with that, but it's something to consider.

Both:
After discussion, it was determined that declaring a realm "faithful" could actually be a useful offensive tactic to gain converts for other uses later on– declare an actually hostile realm faithful in order to gain converts, when they clearly aren't faithful. In order to limit this possibility, I have added a section in the details suggesting that a realm can only be declared faithful if they have an elder in the religion.

---

Note: I have this as one feature request. Realistically, I see it as two feature requests in one proposal, because they are discussing the same topic, even if they're two different methods.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 05:38:11 PM by Vellos »
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vonGenf

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I fear that in many places, you will see two different realms each with their own state religion declares their respective realm good when they are allied to have their priests help each other, even though they do not share a faith. Priests would be like glorified courtiers that can work inter-realm.... I prefer the current system where the actions are only determined by number of followers, not realm allegiance.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Draco Tanos

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Unfortunately that's true.  Though there are those of us who'd use it properly.

Bedwyr

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I fear that in many places, you will see two different realms each with their own state religion declares their respective realm good when they are allied to have their priests help each other, even though they do not share a faith. Priests would be like glorified courtiers that can work inter-realm.... I prefer the current system where the actions are only determined by number of followers, not realm allegiance.

I think you are missing the broader implication here.  This (and many of the other new proposals) would make larger religions more powerful.  Powerful enough that if you were inclined to do things strictly by the numbers as you see above, then you would decide you needed just one religion between the realms.  And if you didn't, you would be at a significant disadvantage.
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here!"

Indirik

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For religions, larger = better. Much more fun, many more options, much more intrigue. Puny little religions are powerless and boring.
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Penchant

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I think you are missing the broader implication here.  This (and many of the other new proposals) would make larger religions more powerful.  Powerful enough that if you were inclined to do things strictly by the numbers as you see above, then you would decide you needed just one religion between the realms.  And if you didn't, you would be at a significant disadvantage.
I get your point but as Indirik says
For religions, larger = better. Much more fun, many more options, much more intrigue. Puny little religions are powerless and boring.
and big religions is not an issue with BM right now.
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― G.K. Chesterton

Bedwyr

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I get your point but as Indirik saysand big religions is not an issue with BM right now.

That's exactly my point.  This would encourage big religions.  This is a good thing.
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Penchant

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That's exactly my point.  This would encourage big religions.  This is a good thing.
Ah, I thought you were saying it is a bad thing for some reason.
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
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vonGenf

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I think you are missing the broader implication here.  This (and many of the other new proposals) would make larger religions more powerful.  Powerful enough that if you were inclined to do things strictly by the numbers as you see above, then you would decide you needed just one religion between the realms.  And if you didn't, you would be at a significant disadvantage.

I don't think that's true.

The key point here is that a realm can be declared "faithful" without having anyone in it of the right religion. I think that's wrong, and I think it decreases the incentive to have big religions. A big baddy with a state religion wouldn't need to convert its neighbors; it just needs to declare them faithful and bam! your priests can act more effectively.

To give an in-game example, SA shouldn't able to declare Barca faithful and then send its priest laud Barca in Aurvandilian regions, even though that may serve its interest. That's a job for ambassadors; if you want priests to do it, you should actually convert Barca first.

The "declare evil" part is less likely to be meta-gamed like that.

I think to declare a realm faithful, you need to have some sort of proof that the realm actually is faithful, and there's no easy metric for that.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Vellos

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Why shouldn't you be able to declare a realm lacking followers as faithful?

Imagine just the ruler converts– I can see a religion declaring a realm faithful based on a single high-profile conversion. See "Clovis" for details.

And that would hardly be an exploit. The puppet state would gain from the priests, sure, but the main state would be gaining enormous power and sway over the other state– which would incentivize the smaller state to get some priests and elders so it can have a little control of its own destiny.
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vonGenf

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Why shouldn't you be able to declare a realm lacking followers as faithful?

Imagine just the ruler converts– I can see a religion declaring a realm faithful based on a single high-profile conversion. See "Clovis" for details.

Sure, the ruler being faithful is a possible test. I said there were no easy metric, not that there were no metric at all.

The example of the conversion of Clovis is a very good example where your mechanics does work, but your mechanic as no restriction at all to limit it to those cases.

In your example, the Italian Pope could declare that heathen vikings are faithful and send priests to incite northern french catholic peasants to abandon the French King, hoping to weaken him and take the territories of Southern France. That would be a clever and legitimate power play on the part of the Italians, but it just doesn't make any sense from a religious point of view.

And that would hardly be an exploit. The puppet state would gain from the priests, sure, but the main state would be gaining enormous power and sway over the other state– which would incentivize the smaller state to get some priests and elders so it can have a little control of its own destiny.

Ok, maybe so, but it's indirect and contrived. If you want to convert your puppet state, why don't you preach in it?
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Vellos

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Sure, the ruler being faithful is a possible test. I said there were no easy metric, not that there were no metric at all.

The example of the conversion of Clovis is a very good example where your mechanics does work, but your mechanic as no restriction at all to limit it to those cases.

In your example, the Italian Pope could declare that heathen vikings are faithful and send priests to incite northern french catholic peasants to abandon the French King, hoping to weaken him and take the territories of Southern France. That would be a clever and legitimate power play on the part of the Italians, but it just doesn't make any sense from a religious point of view.

Ok, maybe so, but it's indirect and contrived. If you want to convert your puppet state, why don't you preach in it?

Ah, I see what you're saying: there's an incentive to name an actually hostile realm as faithful because naming it faithful improves conversion, allowing you to stockpile converts for a future declaration of them as evil.

I'll modify the post to require that faithful realms must have an elder in the religion.

I assume if a religion declares a realm faithful, then all the elders of that realm die/delete/pause, it could still be named faithful just, if it were un-named faithful, it couldn't be renamed until new elders arrived.
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Gabanus family

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In that case the Elder should be a member of the realm for an X number of days. Otherwise you'll get someone being clever, moving a elder into a realm, declare them faithful and then move back to another realm again.

Perhaps a smarter way to solve this is to have the ruler agree (or disagree) with the faithful status (not the evil status of course) of the realm?
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Penchant

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In that case the Elder should be a member of the realm for an X number of days. Otherwise you'll get someone being clever, moving a elder into a realm, declare them faithful and then move back to another realm again.

Perhaps a smarter way to solve this is to have the ruler agree (or disagree) with the faithful status (not the evil status of course) of the realm?
I see what your going for on the rulers deciding but I think it will be turned down a lot more than is true because rulers might see that as submitting to the religion or if its a ruler who doesn't like the religion despite the rest of the realm likings.
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
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Gabanus family

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In that case the rest of the realm may wish to decide to get a new king?
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