Allow Dukes to Secede a multiple city duchy that includes capital

[Chenier]

I kinda agree.

Having the capital in your duchy is too much of a handicap for a duke as it is. Takes a bunch away, gives nothing in return.

[Indirik]

As a duke wanting to secede, you *can't* grant someone a dukeship. You're only a duke, and only rulers can create a duchy. Under the current system, unless the margrave of the capital wants to swap to a different duchy, you're stuck.

[Draco Tanos]

If you're in a Monarchy you're correct.

You're wrong otherwise.

I can perhaps see allowing a Strong Monarch that power. But other rulers wouldn't have it.

And Tyranny.  And Theocracy (except it's an earlier form of Divine Right for them).  Everywhere but Republic and Democracy, actually.  So 3/5 of the game's potential government types.

[Indirik]

Unless you're a very weak monarch, selected by the dukes. In such a case you could actually be a figurehead who's only power is that granted by the dukes.

[Dante Silverfire]

The simple fact is though that this game has always been based upon the fact that a Realm Councilors influence is based upon more than just their ability to push buttons.

Landed titles however are supposed to be power based in their personal strength that comes from their land and vassals.

[Eldargard]

Either having the capital within the duchy should either prevent succession and changing allegiance or it should not prevent succession and changing allegiance. It do not think that the rules between the two should be much different. If the concern is that taking the capital away leaves the old realm with no capital and that it may not be possible to move the capital, then either prevent the departure of the capital in all cases or have a fallback.

An example of such a fallback could be: "Your capital has left the realm and a realm can not be without a capital. You must pay XXX gold and select and select a new capital. If you do not, a stronghold and/or city will be picked for you and made the capital. This may result in the new capital being in an unwanted region and will cause greater damage to the realm/infrastructure." Such a fallback would ensure that no realm could be without a capital for long and the random factor and increased penalties ensure that people will not lightly choose to not pay up. The impact on the realm would be reduced based on how many cities are left which is only better in my opinion.

I am not saying such a system would be best. It could be that the simple solution is to just prevent the capital from departing. I do not thing that additional buttons would be needed in such a case. If the duke controls the capital and more and truly has gained political power over the realm, they should be able to stage a successful rebellion and take the crown. Just my thoughts.

[Indirik]

Having to move your capital, and the trouble, time, and expense of doing it, is part of the penalty of losing your capital in the first place. The game will not elect one for you.

[Dante Silverfire]

Either having the capital within the duchy should either prevent succession and changing allegiance or it should not prevent succession and changing allegiance. It do not think that the rules between the two should be much different.

This is certainly part of the point I'm trying to make. Uniformity of code possibilities only aids the players in making the game easier to understand and thus more enjoyable.

I also think preventing both is not the right course of action.

[Eldargard]

Having to move your capital, and the trouble, time, and expense of doing it, is part of the penalty of losing your capital in the first place. The game will not elect one for you.

Where did I suggest that there be no penalty? Having the game pick a place for you could very well be a penalty in it self. Of course, I would never suggest that the game say "BattleMaster Has decided that your new capital is City2 as you never decided yourself." It would say something along the lines of "Having received no direction from the ruling council, officials, clerks and minor nobility have begun congregating in City2 and the people hail this place as the new capital of Realm1"

Additionally, I am suggesting that the monetary cost be optionally replaced with other costs. I really do not know all the details of capital moves but I imagine it like this:

Capital leaves.
The ruler is asked to pay XXX gold and pick a new city to make the capital
If they do:
They determine where their capital is
The capital takes X days to be established
Realm stats receive x hurt
All the normal, whatever that is
If X days pass ant they do not pay up:
They do not determine where the new capital is - This could result in sub-optimal locations
The capital takes XX days to establish (longer than otherwise)
The realm receives XX hurt (more than if they had paid up)
The beginning of establishment was started way later than if they had paid up right away.

I do not see how any of this is suggesting a lack of penalty and I do not see the problem of random selection. It is not taking anything away from players. It is simply preventing realms that lose their capital due to allegiance changes (or successions) from having no chance at all of establishing a new capital. It is but one of many possible ways to make capitals leaving realms possible. If something is not put into place to address the "Crap, the capital left us and we can not afford to establish a new one" problem, I would think that simply preventing capitals from leaving at all would be best.

You all do what you like though. Leave it as is, find a solution more to your liking. Whatever.

[Indirik]

If tsomething is not put into place to address the "Crap, the capital left us and we can not afford to establish a new one" problem

It's not a problem: realm dies. So sorry, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

[Dante Silverfire]

I am curious as to what members of the Dev team though think about the base proposal though that I've presented?

I feel that I've made a fairly decent argument about improving the game here and simply removing a restriction such as this shouldn't be that difficult to implement once the conversion is finished, let alone beforehand depending upon where in the conversion this part of the code is.

[Foundation]

I think Rob's covering it pretty well.

[Azerax]

Not answering as a dev team person, just my thoughts on this.

The people in the capital tend to have a certain sense of pride over that fact.  If there was a succession, the capital would refuse to go, and remain with the original realm.

[Anaris]

If there was a succession secession, the capital would refuse to go, and remain with the original realm.

Sorry; this is one of those mistakes that bugs me, because too many people make it, and both terms are actually relevant to similar situations ("succession" being the changing from one Ruler to the next).

[Penchant]

Sorry; this is one of those mistakes that bugs me, because too many people make it, and both terms are actually relevant to similar situations ("succession" being the changing from one Ruler to the next).

Technically its the changing of incumbent for any position but yeah.