Q & A - - -Topic: Margrave of Capital asks all priests to change class

[Eldargard]

I honestly have to admit that this is all quite ridiculous. One day you all announce that requests are ok and the next you do this. I I honestly do not know how to express my disappointment. Draw a CLEAR line and stick to it. There is so much ambiguity involved with this IR that all these judgements seem quite worthless.

[Draco Tanos]

I'd say that the difference is that he's targetting priests.  How he should have worded it:

Letter from Actrial Erendegard   (11 hours, 44 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (25 recipients)

I would like to ask all nobles to pick up the sword again, for we need every knight possible to defend the realm!  Our very existence is at stake!  For <realm>!  For glory!

Actrial Erendegard
Margrave of Oritolon

Obviously with my own RPish embellishments, but you get the idea.

Do the Magistrates/Tom agree on this difference?

[vonGenf]

I honestly have to admit that this is all quite ridiculous. One day you all announce that requests are ok and the next you do this. I I honestly do not know how to express my disappointment. Draw a CLEAR line and stick to it. There is so much ambiguity involved with this IR that all these judgements seem quite worthless.

It seems to me that the line is quite clear:

I wish I had more warriors. I'd even pay their recruitment costs!

^ This is a request.

I don't want any priests.

^ This is a violation of the IR.

[Tom]

The difference as I see it, not explicitly related to this case:

Not ok:
"You there, I need you to become (some class)."

Ok:
"We could need more (some class), everyone. I'm filling up the war chest right now."


Where is the line? The line is NOT whether it's a request or an order. The IR page makes it clear that requests and orders are the same when it comes to IRs.
The difference is whether or not someone is told to change his class. Or you are making a factual statement about the needs of the realm. Semantically speaking, the difference is the object of your speech. If you are talking about the realm in a way that does not address or point towards one or a small number of individuals, that's fine because nobody needs to feel pressured.

[Vellos]

Because I'm a cranky person, I'll also note that repeated and emphatic statements by powerful folks and a realm culture hostile to inconvenient classes would raise questions in my mind regarding IRs.

Occasional statements like the above, fine.

Weekly broadsides to the whole realm pressuring nobles to change when only 1 person is in an inconvenient class... IR violation, IMHO.

[egamma]

The proper way for Kai/Actrial to have phrased this would be "I will give 100 gold to any noble who desires to serve Oritolon on the battlefield and needs assistance with hiring a unit." No mention of priests, and there could be diplomats/infils/etc who need assistance with their unit.

[Penchant]

The proper way for Kai/Actrial to have phrased this would be "I will give 100 gold to any noble who desires to serve Oritolon on the battlefield and needs assistance with hiring a unit." No mention of priests, and there could be diplomats/infils/etc who need assistance with their unit.

No need for a benefit the important thing is that he singled out a group of nobles instead of it being a general statement to the realm.

[Chenier]

I honestly have to admit that this is all quite ridiculous. One day you all announce that requests are ok and the next you do this. I I honestly do not know how to express my disappointment. Draw a CLEAR line and stick to it. There is so much ambiguity involved with this IR that all these judgements seem quite worthless.

The line WAS drawn in the last judgement. And in every judgement relating to that IR. All magistrate comments have been coherent, and said the same thing. You can make vague requests for more of a certain class, as long as it's clear nobody is targeted, but you can't tell any specified group of people (ex: priests) to switch to another class. One is a pointer to people who don't mind what class they play and would like to be of the greatest assistance possible, the other tells people you don't like how they play.

[fodder]

I would like to ask all nobles to pick up the sword again, for we need every knight possible to defend the realm!  Our very existence is at stake!  For <realm>!  For glory!

i'm not even sure about that... as technically the only class that needs to pick a sword is a priest XD

I would say something really simple like "We are severely lacking in men at the walls. Send out the cooks and stablehands!" or some such would be a big enough hint.

[Draco Tanos]

Yes, but there are nobles who don't recruit units because they have 'retired' but wish to retain their titles (looking at you, Corwin!).

[Chenier]

I also don't like the "all" part.

[Vellos]

Whatever the case, it at least wouldn't be an immediate, obvious, practically debate-less question for that phrasing.

[Draco Tanos]

I also don't like the "all" part.

So basically, you don't want it to be addressed to a certain person or group, but you don't want it to be addressed to everyone?

* Draco Tanos golf-claps.

[Anaris]

So basically, you don't want it to be addressed to a certain person or group, but you don't want it to be addressed to everyone?

* Draco Tanos golf-claps.

Yes, Draco: he wants it to be addressed generally, asking that someone or some few change, not that everyone who can change.

The latter is asking that particular people change their class, too.

It should, in fact, be addressed indeterminately. That's sort of the point: so that no particular person feels that they, specifically, have to do it.

[Draco Tanos]

Yes, Draco: he wants it to be addressed generally, asking that someone or some few change, not that everyone who can change.

The latter is asking that particular people change their class, too.

It should, in fact, be addressed indeterminately. That's sort of the point: so that no particular person feels that they, specifically, have to do it.

And in my case in Westmoor, I'd be asking people who are warriors to actually recruit a damned unit as well.

I go on MY personal experience:  There are warriors who don't recruit units.  Period.  Not infies, not traders, warriors outright.

Saying "I would like to ask that someone pick up the sword again" rather than "I would like to ask all nobles to pick up the sword again" would get someone flagged to these very forums because it sounds like a passive-aggressive jab  where as my version literally is directed at everyone.  Not a class, not a specific person, but everyone.