Author Topic: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)  (Read 112093 times)

Perth

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #240: February 23, 2013, 08:36:16 PM »
RIP Phoenix Empire.

What happened? I'm not privy anymore  :-\
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jaune

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #241: February 23, 2013, 08:45:27 PM »
Merlin canceled project. Rumours say cause of external(Ce & Tara) and internal pressure.

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Perth

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #242: February 23, 2013, 08:46:29 PM »
Merlin canceled project. Rumours say cause of external(Ce & Tara) and internal pressure.

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Eirikr

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #243: February 23, 2013, 10:13:58 PM »
He wouldn't have canceled it purely out of external pressure, but both of his key supporters (Ravendon and Saeculo) asked him to abandon it. In fact, it was less than five minutes after Ravendon sent his request to abandon it that Merlin officially called it off.

Perth

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #244: February 23, 2013, 10:35:00 PM »
He wouldn't have canceled it purely out of external pressure, but both of his key supporters (Ravendon and Saeculo) asked him to abandon it. In fact, it was less than five minutes after Ravendon sent his request to abandon it that Merlin officially called it off.

Why did they ask him to shut it down? I thought they were behind it? Also... he isn't King anymore? I thought the build up to him being King had been coming for a while?
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Geronus

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #245: February 23, 2013, 11:42:25 PM »
Why did they ask him to shut it down? I thought they were behind it? Also... he isn't King anymore? I thought the build up to him being King had been coming for a while?

The politics became completely toxic. It got to a point where it was clear that the project had failed for all intents and purposes, and attempting to continue on with it would end up doing far more harm than good.

As far as King Merlin goes, from what I can gather many people in the realm were caught off guard by both of his announcements, and that surprise quickly hardened into strong and vocal opposition. He won't be ruler for much longer, and objectively speaking that would probably be the best thing for Coria at this point.

Eirikr

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #246: February 23, 2013, 11:44:58 PM »
I can't speak for Saeculo beyond the fact that he was very upset with Merlin becoming King. That never had full support from either Ravendon or Saeculo. Saeculo outright rejected it, Ravendon thought it appropriate under very specific circumstances. Once that problem cropped up, Saeculo wasn't willing to support Merlin at all, including the Empire.

Ravendon, on the other hand, has been waiting and watching, determining what can actually save Coria. I told him to drop the Empire more because our internal matters have become much more pressing than any external matters. We can pretty easily just stop trying things outside Coria, but those within will continue to protest or speak out. We're not going to save Coria from outside Coria.

I think we are both still for the idea of the Empire (as a diplomatic tool to prevent unnecessary external forces in small conflicts), but have always been against explicitly using it to sabotage allies or save Darka and BoM. Considering the letters that say Merlin was planning to do just that, it was better to drop support. (I had always seen the Empire as helping Darka and BoM by forcing terms to be given and preventing some of the more extreme terms given to Eston... Not outright saving them.)

As for the King deal, all the buildup must've been Merlin's fabrication. Nobody that I know of within Coria actually expected him to do it immediately. When he did and explained why, Coria polarized. He's changed it back to a Republic due to my insistence that the overwhelming resistance (we're talking almost 100 letters a day, maybe more, with about 90% either focused on the Monarchy or the Empire) was from the lack of procedure. He's taken some of my (and others) word to heart and decided to bring back the Republic until the referendum voting for a Monarchy or not has finished.

We'll see what happens when it finishes, but I can't see Merlin reasonably getting through this without much punishment. It makes me kind of sad, but I did warn him.

Eirikr

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #247: February 23, 2013, 11:47:37 PM »
The politics became completely toxic. It got to a point where it was clear that the project had failed for all intents and purposes, and attempting to continue on with it would end up doing far more harm than good.

As far as King Merlin goes, from what I can gather many people in the realm were caught off guard by both of his announcements, and that surprise quickly hardened into strong and vocal opposition. He won't be ruler for much longer, and objectively speaking that would probably be the best thing for Coria at this point.

There's always someone who says exactly what I was going to, just much shorter. (This is a rare case where the detail helps.)

As I said, though, if either Ravendon or Saeculo had tried to keep supporting it, Merlin would not have dropped it. We've had a three-way counterbalance effect for a while. Ravendon was the tie-breaker in this case; I waited a while to see how things would develop.

Geronus

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #248: February 24, 2013, 12:14:22 AM »
There's always someone who says exactly what I was going to, just much shorter. (This is a rare case where the detail helps.)

As I said, though, if either Ravendon or Saeculo had tried to keep supporting it, Merlin would not have dropped it. We've had a three-way counterbalance effect for a while. Ravendon was the tie-breaker in this case; I waited a while to see how things would develop.

I was trying not to give away too many details. Those can be revealed later, after this situation has reached its IG conclusion. I felt like things got awful meta-gamey for a little while, so I figured I'd be cautious.

Perth

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #249: February 24, 2013, 12:23:48 AM »
That is a bummer. I am surprised by the outrage in Coria a little, I figured Merlin had a bit more of a loyal base than that.


More so, I am sad this died out so quickly. Has it even been a week? Looks like it failed and people wrote it off before it even got a chance to do anything... at all.
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T Strike

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #250: February 24, 2013, 12:47:29 AM »
It is sad... I was so excited for it.
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Geronus

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #251: February 24, 2013, 02:11:49 AM »
That is a bummer. I am surprised by the outrage in Coria a little, I figured Merlin had a bit more of a loyal base than that.


More so, I am sad this died out so quickly. Has it even been a week? Looks like it failed and people wrote it off before it even got a chance to do anything... at all.

Under the circumstances, I'm not surprised about what happened. I say that not to fault Merlin but because I've made very similar mistakes myself. I've learned the hard way that things like this can't be imposed unilaterally. You have to lay the groundwork and build a consensus in the realm to make sure you truly do have a majority backing you. That can be hard when people won't engage you in debate, but you have to get past that and put in the effort to assess where each an every character stands. Don't mistake inactivity for apathy; they are not the same in BM. Those Senators who hardly ever say anything might not feel like putting in the time to regularly comment on matters before the Senate, but if you try to railroad them into something they're against, they'll wake up alright. And then they'll give you hell. Been there, done that  :P

Dante Silverfire

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #252: February 24, 2013, 02:51:13 AM »
The politics are completely toxic right now as stated above. That's not the problem though. There is a huge dichotomy right now between IC and OOC perceptions of characters and players.

In terms of Coria:

On a completely OOC level, Coria has been completely stale and boring for a long long time. I took an action which I knew would liven up my realm. My action was one which woke everyone up that things weren't exactly nice and daisy. However, I have had a wide range of responses from players about what they think of it. Some have explicitly complimented me on what I have done, while I have also been questioned about the methods I employed whether they were considered within the spirit of the game.

On a completely IC level, my character took an action which completely upended his realm. He essentially ran a bloodless rebellion by pulling out of his political power and influence to make himself King. To do so, he polarized one of his closest friends into an enemy, and his other close friend as a helpless bystander. Merlin for multiple reasons while losing the support of the majority of the lords of the realm, likely has the support of the majority of the realm to become King. HOWEVER, there have been drastic moves and actions taken within the realm and amongst Coria's allies in an attempt to guarantee that Merlin cannot be King of Coria. These actions have been largely successful in the sense that even if I win the throne, the situation is so toxic that it will not be fun for me to play Merlin in any respect for the foreseeable future. Perhaps ever again. (Note: Currently in Coria a referendum is ongoing on whether or not to let Merlin remain as King of Coria or to have him step down and resume elections)

In terms of Atamara:

On an OOC level: Atamara is on its way to a period of extreme stagnation and peace built upon by the course of current politics. If the current pace of things continue, CE and co will win the war against Darka and BoM. At the end of that war, the entire continent will be allied to either CE or Tara, or forced into peace by treaty. At that time, it will not be possible for any realm to operate a war without prior permission from CE and Tara. Of course, since we all know players want wars, CE or Tara are likely to choose a side in this war, guaranteeing that the winner is likely the one to either appease CE(from now on considered to be both CE and Tara) or the defender who can claim abusive aggression. My plan to found this Phoenix Empire would have allowed this period of stagnation to never have occurred. The Empire was not a military organization, but a diplomatic framework for limited warfare, and pre-stated terms for peace in war. This would have prevented the coming stagnation and allow EVERY PLAYER on Atamara to enjoy a more fun experience over the course of time.

On an IC level: Many players decide to fully 100% create a dichotomy between their support for my proposal and their character's opinions. Fine, I accept that, but this dichotomy is also a very destructive pattern to take when it comes to playing games with friends. I have had many characters whose players support my plans fully, not just oppose my plans but go above and beyond in effort to run them into the ground and to make me feel bad about it at the same time. There have been what I see to be very intentional misreadings of my in game plans (which only have the intention to allow limited warfare, and more fun and dynamic wars) to read completely different things. Characters are completely ignoring what I write in letters, and refusing to discuss or debate anything. All of this is just fine in game, but if you're going to destroy someone, yet completely preclude them from any chance to even do anything, I kind of lose interest. I have spent the past week writing maybe 25-100 letters every single day just on Merlin. I've received between 100-200 letters each of these days and they are all demeaning.

Final thoughts: There is a reason that stagnation and terrible situations are allowed and able to occur. Players aren't interested in taking risks, not because their character might lose some power, but because if they take a risk, they risk being simply destroyed in all aspects. You want a ruler to let your realm have fun and to encourage interactive game play, fine. But don't rip them to shreds when they try to do some interesting things. Right now, I'm trying to decide between simply quitting battle master and simply stopping all meaningful game play. It is worth understanding that while we play characters, those characters can send their messages with the understanding that another player is the one reading those messages. At least give them the benefit of the doubt. Even if you plan to disagree and oppose characters, there are very specific ways you can go about it while still being reasonable. I just logged on to read my most recent set of msgs, and I can't even bring myself to try anymore. It doesn't even matter that I will likely WIN the f***ing election in Coria which grants Merlin the power to remain King of Coria.

All I know is that when I'm playing a board game with friends, you don't always plan fully to win everything. If I see something which will make things more fun for everyone at the table, then I'll try it out even if it isn't the smartest decision for myself personally. Because I'm here to have fun and play with friends, not to max min, and roflstomp those people making things interesting.
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Sacha

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #253: February 24, 2013, 04:33:12 AM »
So basically your idea was the only way to avoid two years of boredom on Atamara and you might as well quit BM because almost nobody went along with it... Let's stop this pity party. Your idea was never going to work. You were threatening the Cagilan/Taran bloc with secessions. What did you expect was going to happen? Your idea certainly livened things up, but in the end it'll just be racked up as one more well-intended but poorly executed attempt at curbing CE's power.

Dante Silverfire

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Re: The Future of Atamara (Post-Great Atamaran War)
« Reply #254: February 24, 2013, 05:01:17 AM »
You were threatening the Cagilan/Taran bloc with secessions.

No I wasn't. I'm not going to deal with that in game and on the forums.

Just stop.

So basically your idea was the only way to avoid two years of boredom on Atamara and you might as well quit BM because almost nobody went along with it

If that is how you choose to read a message that is trying to sort through a whole bunch of different avenues of thought, and so obviously this is all ME as a player throwing a hissy fit, then I think am perfectly on track at the maturity level of this game's player base.
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