I figured out what is wrong with Trade...and how to fix it

[Anaris]

The trader class would be lots of fun if there were a larger number of offers out there, and less price-coordination by buyers and sellers.

This is something of a chicken-and-egg problem.

Regions must be fed. Therefore, realms work out ways to ensure that they are fed—without traders, because most realms don't have active traders.

If there were traders in the mix, it would be much easier for realms to just put up the offers (buy and sell) and let the traders handle the brokering. But, by and large, there aren't.

It's possible that this could be changed, at least somewhat, by removing or reducing the unit penalty for traders. If people could just hang onto the Trader subclass on the off-chance that there would be a use for it, without being penalized for that in their military capabilities, I think a lot more people would do it.

[Solari]

It would be nice if a trader could see all of the deals at least in their realm, irrespective of the trade distance restriction.

[Chenier]

Which, honestly, we just might do. I'm not saying I plan to do it, but it's an alternative. Many things in BM have always been and will always be experimental to some degree, and if they don't work out, if they don't add to the game, we will remove them again. It wouldn't be a first.

Still, I think food is important and should stay, and if we have food, then we need trade because otherwise the forum will be full of complaints when the first drought hits and people wonder why they can't simply buy or steal food somewhere else.

Can we even steal food anymore, now that caravans are gone?

Currently, trade exists to facilitate the exchange of food. Food is justified, because it makes cities dependent on rural regions, which counterbalances the importance of cities. Without food, cities would be self-sufficient regions, capable of supporting all economic structures, potent fortifications and able to produce large amounts of gold. That would be detrimental to gameplay, hence why food exists.

What you are asking, is the introduction of a new resource, not for the sake of balance, but for the sake of trade itself. As I demonstrated, trade is a supplementary feature, the role of which is to facilitate the exchange of food. Trade currently fulfils this role, fully, and so there is no point in adding to it.

I don't quite agree... Food makes trade necessary, but not quite "worth it". It's like if your well water was toxic, and the only solution you had was to buy a 2 million dollar filtration system. Without the pure water, you'd die. But does it really justify a 2 million dollar filtration system? Adding resources is basically the equivalent of giving your 2 million dollar filtration system other uses (water for exports, filtration for irrigation, juice filtration, etc.), so that you can better get a return on the investment.

This is something of a chicken-and-egg problem.

Regions must be fed. Therefore, realms work out ways to ensure that they are fed—without traders, because most realms don't have active traders.

If there were traders in the mix, it would be much easier for realms to just put up the offers (buy and sell) and let the traders handle the brokering. But, by and large, there aren't.

It's possible that this could be changed, at least somewhat, by removing or reducing the unit penalty for traders. If people could just hang onto the Trader subclass on the off-chance that there would be a use for it, without being penalized for that in their military capabilities, I think a lot more people would do it.

And many realms don't have traders because there just aren't enough food on the markets to make it any fun. It's a vicious cycle, really. There's not enough trading to do to incite people to become traders, and as such there aren't enough traders around to do the trading that is required. Hence why I think we should try to make being a trader more interesting, without making them any more necessary.

[Anaris]

Can we even steal food anymore, now that caravans are gone?

Yes. It should be transferred directly to your region, if you have an estate or a Lordship. (Otherwise it just gets destroyed.)

I don't quite agree... Food makes trade necessary, but not quite "worth it". It's like if your well water was toxic, and the only solution you had was to buy a 2 million dollar filtration system. Without the pure water, you'd die. But does it really justify a 2 million dollar filtration system? Adding resources is basically the equivalent of giving your 2 million dollar filtration system other uses (water for exports, filtration for irrigation, juice filtration, etc.), so that you can better get a return on the investment.

So are you saying you support the idea of removing food entirely? (Just trying to unwind your analogy )

And many realms don't have traders because there just aren't enough food on the markets to make it any fun. It's a vicious cycle, really. There's not enough trading to do to incite people to become traders, and as such there aren't enough traders around to do the trading that is required. Hence why I think we should try to make being a trader more interesting, without making them any more necessary.

Yes, exactly. Sorry, that was the other half of the chicken-and-egg problem that I forgot to articulate

[egamma]

Currently, trade exists to facilitate the exchange of food. Food is justified, because it makes cities dependent on rural regions, which counterbalances the importance of cities. Without food, cities would be self-sufficient regions, capable of supporting all economic structures, potent fortifications and able to produce large amounts of gold. That would be detrimental to gameplay, hence why food exists.

What you are asking, is the introduction of a new resource, not for the sake of balance, but for the sake of trade itself. As I demonstrated, trade is a supplementary feature, the role of which is to facilitate the exchange of food. Trade currently fulfils this role, fully, and so there is no point in adding to it.

Well, Food trade benefits rurals. Wood trade would benefit woodslands, and metal trade would benefit mountain regions. Right now there are 4 region types that people care about: rurals for food, and strongholds/townslands/cities for gold. There are other region types, they just get ignored by the current trade system, and don't get a share of the gold that cities spend on food.

Can we even steal food anymore, now that caravans are gone?

Blackmarket doesn't work, but the loot food option does.

[Chenier]

I went trough D'Hara, Corsanctum, Morek, and Swordfell, and only very briefly spotted a single sell offer the whole time.

Not much of a surprise hardly anyone bothers with becoming a trader. There are just a heap of buy offers everywhere, you never need to go anywhere to sell food, if you have any, and if you are looking to buy, there's none on the open market.

[feyeleanor]

The Trader class would be greatly improved by recognising that these aren't mere merchant adventurers but powerful magnates trading food across hundreds of miles.

It makes sense that merchants would have warehouses and manufacturies in the regions they deal with, the way priests have shrines. These could be used to store food separate from granaries and also generate modest amounts of gold based on some notion of market reach. Likewise they would be taxed, putting gold into the region coffers.

Traders then go from being a dull class with little impact on the game to being a very desirable addition to a realm.

[Chenier]

The Trader class would be greatly improved by recognising that these aren't mere merchant adventurers but powerful magnates trading food across hundreds of miles.

It makes sense that merchants would have warehouses and manufacturies in the regions they deal with, the way priests have shrines. These could be used to store food separate from granaries and also generate modest amounts of gold based on some notion of market reach. Likewise they would be taxed, putting gold into the region coffers.

Traders then go from being a dull class with little impact on the game to being a very desirable addition to a realm.

None of that helps if traders are looking to buy and there's no food on the market.

Besides, the fact that lords ship food remotely kinda suggests that already.

[Psyche]

It would be interesting if traders with warehouses got the rotten food thrown out of the local food stores.  Being able to sell rotten food would be almost as good as giving traders the black market back.  The regional reports wouldn't notice it right away, so the trade wouldn't be flagged immediately.  Also, it could be resold before being found out; possibly making it look like one realm is selling garbage to a starving ally.... possible wars over tainted food!


If not that, perhaps bring back the random profits for traders.  Either gold, unique items, or scrolls.  Even a random chance of acquiring contacts who have also traded with your trading partners within the past 2 weeks or so could be useful.  Maybe even let them meet with sages and wizards?   Heck, you could also let them broker unique items.

There's many possibilities for traders to exploit without bringing new resources for others to be burdened by.

[Chenier]

My original suggestion for "luxury goods" was that it be a resource that incurs no penalties if lacking, but morale bonuses if present and higher profits if the trader shipped it from far away. Heck, it could be completely independent of the lords: it could be a resource that the traders sell and buy from lower nobility and the bourgeoisie, that non-traders would never need to concern themselves with.

Perhaps enabling trader/adventurer interactions would give traders more to do, as well. Maybe adventurers could use a few things that only traders can move around and/or supply? Perhaps traders could "manage" marketplaces which sell and buy all kinds of goodies (as well as gear) for the adventurers?

I agree we shouldn't give another resource as important as food for realms to manage. But as someone pointed out, badlands and woodlands are being largely left out of the trading game, because they don't produce anything of particular interest to anyone (they don't need to buy food, but they don't produce all that much to sell either). Giving more to do in the trader game need to result in a significant increase of the trading burden on non-traders and realms overall. Food is a "no bonus"/"everything goes to hell" kind of resource as for as "have"/"have not" goes.. At worst, I propose that new resources be "bonus"/"slight penalty" or "slight bonus"/"no penalty".

[Psyche]

Perhaps make them minor resources that get picked up by traders in specific types of regions that can be itemized for one time actions- which can be traded.

For example;
You just traded with the lord of a mountain region and also picked up 6 units of ore.
You already acquired 94 units of ore in previous trades, and the 100 units can now be traded as 1 rare metal.
If you construct a RC while in possession of a rare metal, you have better chances of greatest equipment values.  The item is automatically applied, and is exhausted after one use.

Perhaps the same with wood, except it is automatically applied if it is a ranged RC, and will boost the new RC range.

Maybe those badlands had a rare hops to make great ale.  Spend your kegs to give a one time boost to either regional or troop morale.

I'm not keen on the idea of food being more empowered, but I suppose you could have an item that makes the harvest one level better than the weather (drought = average, average = good).


Most of all I like the idea of mechanics that increase the interaction and things to do for traders and advys in one swoop.

[Kwanstein]

You are thinking backwards. The game shouldn't be changed to facilitate traders; traders should be changed to facilitate the game. Otherwise you wind up with a myriad of extraneous features, complicating the game for the sake of a class which exists solely for it's own sake.

As a reminder, the trader class' raison d'etre is that it serves to facilitate the exchange of food; food serves to curtail the independence of cities; cities serve to complicate fundamental matters of strategy, leading to deeper gameplay for all classes. The best improvement one could make to the trader, would be to strengthen it's bond in this relationship.

[Dishman]

I've only been playing as a trader for a few weeks, but so far I've just seen a strange imbalance of supply and demand. There will be 10 sell offers going for 40 gold per 100 bushels, but 2 buy offers going for 20 gold per 100. There have been a few times that the prices will match up reasonably, and I'll make 10 gold here and there, but it seems like people aren't setting realistic prices.

It may just take time for an 'invisible hand of the market' to take shape. As long as people aren't using the market as a "rot-free zone" or some other meta-game trick, I'd imagine eventually people will start to balance things out.

[Anaris]

I've only been playing as a trader for a few weeks, but so far I've just seen a strange imbalance of supply and demand. There will be 10 sell offers going for 40 gold per 100 bushels, but 2 buy offers going for 20 gold per 100. There have been a few times that the prices will match up reasonably, and I'll make 10 gold here and there, but it seems like people aren't setting realistic prices.

It may just take time for an 'invisible hand of the market' to take shape. As long as people aren't using the market as a "rot-free zone" or some other meta-game trick, I'd imagine eventually people will start to balance things out.

I don't think that's necessarily a reasonable assumption.

At this point, I think that by and large, realms have achieved the equilibrium they desire. This has nothing to do with an equilibrium that is beneficial to traders. Indeed, for many realms, having food that is put on the market and not specifically destined for a particular region or small set of regions within their own realm is considered to be a security risk, or otherwise a bad thing.

[Indirik]

The marketplace is not a rot-free zone. Food put up for sale that is not sold is subject to rot when it is returned to the warehouse.