I figured out what is wrong with Trade...and how to fix it

[Indirik]

Yeah, that's quite possible. We really need some kind of set-and-forget management system for food. Being Margrave of a city is a never-ending hassle of begging for people to sell you food, running to marketplaces to post orders, and other scut work.

[Penchant]

...and I believe the only way that is likely to happen naturally is if there is a large area of the map that is chronically short on food, but rich, and another area of the map, of comparable size, that is chronically short on gold, but has plenty of food surplus.

Not only does that not happen given our current maps, any realm in the former area would fall apart due to starvation before the food would be likely to be brokered to them, and any realm in the latter area would not have enough money or nobles to withstand assault by a richer realm that wants the breadbasket for itself.

Doesn't really work either since traders need to be within range of both of these to work. Instead of lots of orders showing up like the current system, it should be changed so that multiple offers can be made but its listed as one with the option to choose how many you want to accept. So instead of there being 10 offers listed its one offer shown saying there are 10 and you just choose how many you would like to accept. Also, I don't like that it would automatically break it up as often prices will depend on how much is being bought/sold.

[Indirik]

YAFO: give the lord a checkbox to indicate whether or not an order can be partially filled. Then you don't need to bust orders up into penny packets, nor do lords need to individually post 20 duplicate orders. Gets rid of the need for traders to exactly match up buy and sell orders. Allows lords to post a massive 5,000 bushels order, and have it filled as food is available.

Also, make orders stick around for longer. (At least Buy orders, I can understand why Sell orders can't stick around forever.)

Allow the lords to set an option to auto-post buy orders based on a threshold "when less than 1000 in the warehouse, buy at 35/100 until we have more than 2000".

 Etc., etc.

[Chenier]

YAFO: give the lord a checkbox to indicate whether or not an order can be partially filled. Then you don't need to bust orders up into penny packets, nor do lords need to individually post 20 duplicate orders. Gets rid of the need for traders to exactly match up buy and sell orders. Allows lords to post a massive 5,000 bushels order, and have it filled as food is available.

Also, make orders stick around for longer. (At least Buy orders, I can understand why Sell orders can't stick around forever.)

Allow the lords to set an option to auto-post buy orders based on a threshold "when less than 1000 in the warehouse, buy at 35/100 until we have more than 2000".

 Etc., etc.

I don't even see why not have sell offers stick around either, they are subject to food rot after all when it comes back.

I don't really mind the new trade system, as opposed to caravans, where people ship food from a distance and with bonds (though I still find the use of bonds to be quite confusing and conflicting with the rest of the game). However, it's the changes that go around the market management that I don't like. Back with caravans, I had to send a bunch of caravans all of the time, sure. But at least the sellers could set and forget. Apathy was much less of a burden to the trading game, and starvation was much more the result of dukes not putting enough effort to feed their cities than the result of nobody caring to put sell offers. I understand that the newer system is much simpler and cleaner code, which is fine. Caravans don't need to come back. Even if it felt that my range and possibilities were much greater back then. But the set and forget, for at least sell offers, this is important...

[Psyche]

Would it be able to deposit food on the market at a set price and allow sales to be in amounts specified by the buyer, and the other way around?  Like a text field such as the guilds use for treasuries.

Steward of Place has a sale offer of 300 bushels at 30/100 for a value of 90.
(Instead of just a little box to click to trade)  How many bushels would you like to purchase? ____ *trade button*

Of course, since we have rot, a lord/steward would never be able to add to this sell offer.  Instead they should start a new one with the rot factor still unique to the offer.

While I think part of this system was to get purchasers to spend some gold around to poorer income rurals with all or nothing offers, it does seem to make some less interested in having to front these big offers of which some will rot.  The proposed way would still allow starving lords to purchase big amounts, but would still let selling lords have a steady income as others wither away at their sell offers.  Buyers will still buy, at optimal levels to them, and sellers will still be selling.

This would also allow some to become rather wealthy trade moguls; buy up any offers you can cheap enough, and put them back on the market for more until the offer has sold down.  Would actually encourage players to consider their local economies a little more.

[feyeleanor]

None of that helps if traders are looking to buy and there's no food on the market.

And there won't be food on the market whilst there are no traders. So that means the first thing to fix is the lack of traders, and that means introducing things traders can do.

The ability to build tangible and long-lived trade networks via warehouses and manufactories is one such option. Between the food stored and the gold generated there's a clear benefit without destroying game balance.

Further psyche's suggestion of being able to sell rotten food has potential, as would a return of the black market and side-profits based on distance of trade etc.

Traders could also find opportunities for profit or mischief from speaking with the same wealthy merchants that diplomats so regularly court. Indeed if there were a market share concept this would become a significant part of their daily routine.

[vonGenf]

With your plan, your making margrave of a city a position no one would ever want.

You make that sound like it's a bad thing. If you think you get more power as lord of a rural... go for the rural.

[Penchant]

You make that sound like it's a bad thing. If you think you get more power as lord of a rural... go for the rural.

I do think its bad to intentionally make the game suck for a position.

[Kwanstein]

I'd be willing to become duke even without the monetary reward. The political power alone makes it appealing, asides from which are various side perks, like family fame increase and access to exclusive features, such as tournaments. Money has become pretty devalued anyway -- it's not like it's hard to achieve 200+ gold incomes, what with the character shortages.

[Chenier]

I'd be willing to become duke even without the monetary reward. The political power alone makes it appealing, asides from which are various side perks, like family fame increase and access to exclusive features, such as tournaments. Money has become pretty devalued anyway -- it's not like it's hard to achieve 200+ gold incomes, what with the character shortages.

Don't confuse dukes with margraves. And tournaments cost gold. As for the character shortages, it insures atrocious tax efficiency.

[vonGenf]

I do think its bad to intentionally make the game suck for a position.

I can agree with the sentiment, but I don't think it is justified here. If the changes made to being a Lord suck, then it would be bad; but rearranging the relative interest of the region types would not be a problem.

[Kwanstein]

Hmm, yes I forgot that duchies and cities are now separate things. Still, I'd take the city even at a loss. It's a rare thing to rule a city in this game.

Also, after doing some calculations, I have to wonder how Golden Farrow is spending all of it's money on food? Assuming food consumption scales linearly to population, it shouldn't need much more than 100 bushels per day. That amounts to 700 a week, which, even when purchased at a premium, should only come to an expense of 350 gold. Golden Farrow produces 2,000 gold per week. The Lord wouldn't get all of that, of course, however he should be able to get between 40 and 60%. So... how come it's all going to food expenses? Is the tax rate really low or something?

[Gustav Kuriga]

Hmm, yes I forgot that duchies and cities are now separate things. Still, I'd take the city even at a loss. It's a rare thing to rule a city in this game.

Also, after doing some calculations, I have to wonder how Golden Farrow is spending all of it's money on food? Assuming food consumption scales linearly to population, it shouldn't need much more than 100 bushels per day. That amounts to 700 a week, which, even when purchased at a premium, should only come to an expense of 350 gold. Golden Farrow produces 2,000 gold per week. The Lord wouldn't get all of that, of course, however he should be able to get between 40 and 60%. So... how come it's all going to food expenses? Is the tax rate really low or something?

You are assuming that I only buy just enough to sustain my region, rather than enough to cover the needs of the city despite two droughts in close succession, while having food left in case of an emergency or if I need to travel from the region. I got 600 gold last tax, out of 1617 taxes. By the way, Golden Farrow is not fully populated, so your theory of 2000 gold per week would only be true if I upped the tax percentage to 20%. Which I am not willing to do because I don't want to be sitting in the region all day long doing courtier work and telling tales as a hero. I have also provided gold for our traders to go out and buy food elsewhere, for our other regions.

[Indirik]

Money has become pretty devalued anyway -- it's not like it's hard to achieve 200+ gold incomes, what with the character shortages.

This is the real reason trading is broken. Lords that have food have no reason to seek buyers for their food. They have all the gold they need. The poorest lords are lords of regions that have no appreciable food surplus, so no real food to sell. The lords that have lots of food also have regions that have lots of gold from taxes. Letting food rot costs them nothing, as it's all make-believe food anyway. What do they need another 100 gold a week for?

[Penchant]

Hmm, yes I forgot that duchies and cities are now separate things. Still, I'd take the city even at a loss. It's a rare thing to rule a city in this game.

Also, after doing some calculations, I have to wonder how Golden Farrow is spending all of it's money on food? Assuming food consumption scales linearly to population, it shouldn't need much more than 100 bushels per day. That amounts to 700 a week, which, even when purchased at a premium, should only come to an expense of 350 gold. Golden Farrow produces 2,000 gold per week. The Lord wouldn't get all of that, of course, however he should be able to get between 40 and 60%. So... how come it's all going to food expenses? Is the tax rate really low or something?

You are using inaccurate info. The gold listed on region info is before pop rebalance and with full production which GF does not have due to low pop. I would estimate GF's income at 1400 with atleast 400 going to upkeep. With 30% of 1000 that's 300 gold + 5% of 700 which is 335 gold but you need to take away atleast 10% for dukes leaving it at 301 which makes him not able to afford 50 gold per 100 bushels. Lastly, because of militia it's much more like 770-800 bushels a week.