Nivemus vs. Perdan

[Gloria]

Gloria, let it be, some people don't know the history, nor do they care.
Heck, a guy spammed in the ruler channel and was talking about Atanamir being King of Old Rancagua. Couldn't be more odd.
The RP of Old Rancagua has been raped, and people pick the best out of it when they need it - and well, when you pick things from others' RP (Haradrim, being heir, etc) don't be surprised when it backfires. They maybe had other plans than you have. Cause some people have this RP for longer than you play BM.
And that's why then people don't understand the RPs, why things happen, and why more things will happen in the future.
First lesson in BM should be to learn history, this way you might be able to predict the future.

Don't worry,  I know enough BM history even when my characters don't.  I do enjoy the narrative of it all when the RP pieces (from past and present, from different people in different realms) are put together, so I am not worried about anything backfiring. 

Honestly I don't plan any RP planned ahead for my character other than gaining enough prestige to become a diplomat and be named Ambassador.

But in the process I expect to see some religious arguments about destiny, humanity (as opposed to elf-ness) and the purpose of war,  leading to increased tension between the Church of Humanity and the Order of the White Tree.

[Atanamir]

Don't worry,  I know enough BM history even when my characters don't.  I do enjoy the narrative of it all when the RP pieces (from past and present, from different people in different realms) are put together, so I am not worried about anything backfiring. 

Honestly I don't plan any RP planned ahead for my character other than gaining enough prestige to become a diplomat and be named Ambassador.

But in the process I expect to see some religious arguments about destiny, humanity (as opposed to elf-ness) and the purpose of war,  leading to increased tension between the Church of Humanity and the Order of the White Tree.

I actually was not speaking about you in the part of "people don't know BM history" ;)

[vonGenf]

I actually was not speaking about you in the part of "people don't know BM history" ;)

The fun in Battlemaster comes from creating new history, not knowing every detail of the old one. Sure, you can't ignore it entirely either; but it's perfectly alright to pick up the pieces you see in the region description and other places your character know and take it from there.

We play medieval nobles, and medieval nobles didn't have a perfect grasp of history either. Not everything was written down, or it was only kept in the vaults of some dusty monastery that no one looked at. Everything that was more than one generation away was at best half-tale and half-truth.

What appears in the wiki is made-up, just like your original vision is made-up. Everybody has the right to makes things up, and pick up pieces here and there from things that existed before, and intertwine it with the rest of history. Some of it may be contradictory, and it doesn't matter. If it makes things fun, it sticks.

There is no great book we can refer too to check who is right and who is wrong and it's perfect that way.

[Atanamir]

The fun in Battlemaster comes from creating new history, not knowing every detail of the old one. Sure, you can't ignore it entirely either; but it's perfectly alright to pick up the pieces you see in the region description and other places your character know and take it from there.

We play medieval nobles, and medieval nobles didn't have a perfect grasp of history either. Not everything was written down, or it was only kept in the vaults of some dusty monastery that no one looked at. Everything that was more than one generation away was at best half-tale and half-truth.

What appears in the wiki is made-up, just like your original vision is made-up. Everybody has the right to makes things up, and pick up pieces here and there from things that existed before, and intertwine it with the rest of history. Some of it may be contradictory, and it doesn't matter. If it makes things fun, it sticks.

There is no great book we can refer too to check who is right and who is wrong and it's perfect that way.

I agree, but I also agree with the saying of Sir Francis Bacon: ,,(For) knowledge (itself) is power" ;)

[vonGenf]

I agree, but I also agree with the saying of Sir Francis Bacon: ,,(For) knowledge (itself) is power" ;)

True.

Then again, don't forget that ignorance is strength.  8)

[Uzamaki]

Ok I will explain it only once again.
a) You don't need a realm to be a Prince. Read history how many exiled rulers etc existed and still exist.
He was part of OR, but as NPC, Fuinur and Ragnell made him in Poitiers.
If you were there, you'd know that.

And I will explain it once more since you do not seem to understand.
No, but you do need a legitimate claim and a legitimate base of support, of which Atanamir had neither.

b) The region description you described is deleted.

Yes, it has been deleted. However, that is not the region description I based my RP off of. I, for the thousandth time, based it off of yours, and then was exiled, as many former OR members were, and then returned. That description is the description of a Sultanate Lord and Neji doesn't care or consider valid what they viewed of the regio.

For someone like you or your realm that holds so much of its roleplay you have not cared to restore or at least change the descriptions of your regions. The description you say was deleted long before, and when I wrote it, I had not meant that the Haradrim are a tribe but the vassals of the family of Umbar who follow them everywhere they go. Since he was in Pedrera, they settled with him there (as long as he would be there) You can find them on all cotinents in RCs , region descriptions etc. Now fine, according to your wiki, you made them a tribe of Nivemus. I quote:

All nice - but entirely wrong. First you date them wrong, second the meaning is "Warriors of the South".
Now why should a tribe in the North call themselves warriors of the south?
Then you write something about wars, I don't understand it.
That is what I call raping of RP or simply don't knowing why things are there.

However, I played with you, and continued my RP with Haradrim now being settled there waiting for their noble leader (or his heir) to return.  Cause why should they stay there otherwise? So nobody returned, instead a new realm has been formed, their leader has been not even asked to participate, although he has royal claims and the promise of Sirion was to involve all Old Rancaguans in it.

I'll just block all of this together.

Saying 'you have not cared to restore your region descriptions etc, etc...' I don't control the region. Ketchum does. He is free to do what he wants with the region description. Hell, he can even say the Haradrim are just a local folk tale if he wants. I will tell him his is wrong, but I am not going to force him into RPing out the vision for Nivemus many players have roleplayed into(and, admittedly, Ketchum has RPed into it a bit himself, I believe).

All wrong, that is, according to you. I built on your RP, but I did not follow the guidelines you had strictly. And quite frankly, these 'guidelines' are only coming up now. We have Roleplayed Nivemus as a country of united tribes for over a year and a half... And now you are upset and saying we are wrong. I roleplayed in Old Rancagua to various small degrees about the Haradrim... But now you are upset. Don't get your knickers in a twist months and months after the fact and expect everyone just to do as you say, or even say 'oh, great and powerful Atanamir, you are right! Forgive our fallacies!'... Because it's not gonna happen.

Okay, you can argue I date them wrong and I can argue they formed hundreds of years ago. You can also argue you known the meaning and I can argue you probably don't. And, also, I know for a fact the name Haradrim came from Tolkien, so, I am not sure your statement is correct anyways.

It's not raping of RP. It's called performing RP. You just happened to not be there and now, years after the fact, are taking issue.

Which c) leads to your third line of argumentation. In Nivemus you have Talius, you have Monte Cristo, two former Kings. Dekion, the ruler of the decline, is not there anymore and Fuinur is dead. Now without Fuinur, OR's claim would be sole Oroya, that's when Fuinur starting expanding Old Rancagua as it was down to one City. Talius was there but stepped down, Monte Cristo had fled the continent when OR was dead and only came back when OR was an Empire to say that he has a claim to the throne (lol). So Fuinur, and his heirs can always claim that their are the line that made OR so big - and that was pre Charger-rebellion and pre-Dekion corrupcy.

Atanamir however does not do that, he has found his way of life in the south, after being treated so badly from Sirion and been left out in the follow-up state of OR, what eventually became Nivemus. He is surely insulted in his honour, for he and his family have done so much for a realm (OR) and have got nothing in return, but he also acknowledges that he has to look into future. But still, he sees that his loyal vassals have suddenly are being recruited and used as sword fodder for a possible war against him. This comes to a peak when the delegation of the old captain of Fuinur arrives in Perdan. See, that Haradrim are not peasants, they are the personal warrior caste of the Umbar family, which Nivemus tries to use against their leader. What happened afterwards, you know all...Enjoy now the war.

And for the thousandth time again, Nivemus is not Old Rancagua.

But if that isn't a simple enough explanation, here is a more complex one:
1. Through your badly written jibberish, I think I can make out Talius stepping down and so not having as large a claim, and Monte Cristo emigrating elsewhere and then immigrating back. I am unsure about the Talius situation, I heard he was removed due to a wound and then someone else was elected in his place, but I know for a fact the Monte Cristo never left the continent. He has been in Westmoor and Caligus, and then came back to help start Nivemus. He never left the continent and he never ran for King on his 'claims'.
2. Claiming your former King made OR big and claiming you have a right to the throne are two very different things. But, once again, this is irrelevant because Nivemus is not OR.
3. If by treated so badly you mean was an entirely irresponsible and unsuccessful General, then yes, he was 'treated badly' in Sirion. But it wasn't like their weren't former Old Rancaguans who weren't treated badly and as a waste of space at one point or another, although it is worth mentioning that the true Old Rancaguans that were in Sirion, such as myself, Talius, and Olaf, never held a Sirionite position because Sirion was not our home, which, in my opinion, is indicative of what Atanamir really wanted his entire career: power. There were some others, such as the Flockharts, Fleishers, and Cobalts who rose to power in the North of Sirion, but they were corrupt and eventually banished by Erik Eyolf, something which is still remembered by Neji.
4. Atanamir do a lot for OR? Give me a break. I can see where you said the Umbar's did a lot, which is fine. But Atanamir? You have to be a part of a realm for you to do something for them!
5. Once again, and for the thousandth time I say, I don't mind your reason for war, and in fact, I appreciate it! And you can say they are the personal warrior caste of the Umbar family, but as Ketchum pointed out in his RP, and as nearly everyone in Nivemus will tell you, you cannot recruit Nivemus units, the Haradrim is located in Pedrera, and Atanamir is a Southern King who thinks he can bully Nivemus.

You can Roleplay things that say I am wrong and things that are exactly contradictory to what the Nivemus tradition now has. But: 1. I hope you won't because you are sacrificing the joy of many players for your deluded 'personal warrior caste' that isn't supported game mechanics wise at all, and 2. That doesn't stop me from doing what I will do, and that's Roleplaying out a Nivemus tradition.

[Draco Tanos]

. . .but I know for a fact the Monte Cristo never left the continent. He has been in Westmoor and Caligus, and then came back to help start Nivemus. He never left the continent. . .

Actually High Guard/Monte Cristo spent about two years on Beluaterra.  He was even overthrown as leader of Melhed in a rebellion.  That move was after he lost the election for ruler of Rancagua.  He later returned to Old Rancagua.  If he attempted to take credit for things, I have no idea off hand as I wasn't there at the time.  Then again, neither were you as it was 2005.

[Uzamaki]

Actually High Guard/Monte Cristo spent about two years on Beluaterra.  He was even overthrown as leader of Melhed in a rebellion.  That move was after he lost the election for ruler of Rancagua.  He later returned to Old Rancagua.  If he attempted to take credit for things, I have no idea off hand as I wasn't there at the time.  Then again, neither were you as it was 2005.

Yeah that was 2005. I assumed, since we were talking about claims to the Nivemus throne, he was talking about in-between Old Rancagua's death and Nivemus' birth.

EDIT: And I am not sure if he is talking about when Old Rancagua was dead... Does he mean when the Church of Rancagua took over and the Talius and others later fought a Civil War against Rancagua with Old Rancagua? Doesn't really matter though...

[Draco Tanos]

From what I remember of High Guard during his time in Westmoor, he never seemed to have given up claims to OR's throne either.  Been a long while though, so most I remember is him complaining about everything.

[Uzamaki]

From what I remember of High Guard during his time in Westmoor, he never seemed to have given up claims to OR's throne either.  Been a long while though, so most I remember is him complaining about everything.

Well, he never acted on them. Not yet at least. As for the latter part, that comes with every Tezokian.

[Zakilevo]

Trust me. I have been dealing with Tezokians over my past three years and nobody is more sick and tired of their unproductive complaints.

I swear this is the last time I am leading a republic. MONARCHY FTW.

[Draco Tanos]

They're the same way in monarchies, apparently.

Though I would love to see a republic actually played as a merchant republic.  It'd certainly be interesting.

[Zakilevo]

They're the same way in monarchies, apparently.

Though I would love to see a republic actually played as a merchant republic.  It'd certainly be interesting.

Definitely. Unfortunately, BM's trade system isn't as fancy as CK2. Actually, CK2's trade system isn't that fancy either...

[Draco Tanos]

With sea travel, it'll make merchant republics more feasible from a RP prospective. 

And no, CK2's trade system isn't fancy at all.  It's all gold, really. 

Would love to see more real differences between the government types in BM.

[Zakilevo]

With sea travel, it'll make merchant republics more feasible from a RP prospective. 

And no, CK2's trade system isn't fancy at all.  It's all gold, really. 

Would love to see more real differences between the government types in BM.

I believe that is on Tom's TODO list but with him being busy with M&F, I doubt it will be implemented in any foreseeable future.