Phoenix Empire

[Indirik]

Eston was pretty much already dead. They didn't really have any choice, and Darka understands that. I don't think anyone seriously blames Eston for surrendering.

[Geronus]

It was a confusing and fast moving period right after Kerwin came onto the throne. Merlin came to Anost to meet with Kerwin to discuss the peace deal, which allowed the Darkans to slip into the city and sack it since Merlin wasn't there to pull up a bunch of militia.

Merlin was upset about that, I remember. Regardless, it helped ensure Coria wanted to sign peace with Eston. Kerwin signed peace with Coria because 1) it was part of his overall goals to ultimately create a new powerful alliance between Coria and Eston and 2) because he was foolishly unaware of Darka's extreme unwillingness to use the Wester/Talerium theatre to prosecute the war. Kerwin was convinced that the war to win the war was through Talerium, not Coria and Tara. Kerwin wanted to take the war directly to CE/Eaglin, not waste time trying to slog through Coria and northern Tara. Ultimately, we all know how those plans worked out.

Maybe if, you know, Kerwin had consulted his allies, he would have realized the mistake he was making before he made it. Important disclaimer: Laszlo was not directly involved in any of these discussions, so maybe Kerwin did; from what Laszlo was told though, Eston's agreement with Coria mostly came out of left field to the rest of the NA, and subsequent allied concerns were largely disregarded.

[Geronus]

We need to stop using word puppet. I don't think CE's Imperial Senate sits all day deciding what strings to pull. CE senators don't see other realms as puppets. This is getting silly and annoying.

Coria pulled out of the war with Eston. Sure CE wasn't happy, but we endured. ML, supported by CE, isn't fighting Darka nor Barony, and that's OK. Tara is brewing politics in the South while CE is allied with Suville, that's also OK. Talerium doesn't allow CE to cross Darkan borders, that's also fine! You see the trend? CE isn't happy about a lot of things and that's not the end of the world!

You guys have perverted vision of CE. Yes, CE is big, and CE will fight if you pick on it. What did you expect? CE did not declare war on Darka or BoM, CE did not declare war on Carelia or Caergoth. Why fight CE when you can fight someone else? And when you loose, you start pouting, "CE is bully!" And just because a circumstance makes you friendly towards CE, it doesn't mean you are CE's puppet. With the same logic I can call Darka to be Barony's puppet, and that's just silly.

You have a perverted vision of CE also. The day that Talerium and/or Tara side against CE in a major conflict is the day you can tell me you're right. Until then, you've got no leg to stand on. Those realms have and will continue to mindlessly follow CE's lead in every way that matters for the foreseeable future.

[Telrunya]

There are more choices between being a puppet and fighting your long-term Ally. And Realms like Tara are definitely not mindlessly following CE's lead, but that doesn't mean Tara and CE don't remain allies.

[Dante Silverfire]

There are more choices between being a puppet and fighting your long-term Ally. And Realms like Tara are definitely not mindlessly following CE's lead, but that doesn't mean Tara and CE don't remain allies.

They made a federation, so they essentially destroyed all future diplomacy between their realms. Its "my way or the highway" from both sides. Yet there is no highway. So they just kind of look at each other dully until someone abroad gives them reason to start a war together.

Now, Tara certainly doesn't "act" like a puppet of CE, yet they are. How many wars do you think Tara would win on its own? They take all of their direction militarily from CE. Period. Tara's military sucks. Tara's military is the worst military possible for a realm their size. They NEED CE therefore they are CE's puppets.

[Vellos]

They made a federation, so they essentially destroyed all future diplomacy between their realms. Its "my way or the highway" from both sides. Yet there is no highway. So they just kind of look at each other dully until someone abroad gives them reason to start a war together.

Now, Tara certainly doesn't "act" like a puppet of CE, yet they are. How many wars do you think Tara would win on its own? They take all of their direction militarily from CE. Period. Tara's military sucks. Tara's military is the worst military possible for a realm their size. They NEED CE therefore they are CE's puppets.

Right– because clearly Tara never has any influence on CE. Clearly this is a one-way street of CE controlling Tara.

[Geronus]

There are more choices between being a puppet and fighting your long-term Ally. And Realms like Tara are definitely not mindlessly following CE's lead, but that doesn't mean Tara and CE don't remain allies.

I didn't say they mindlessly follow CE's lead, I said they mindlessly follow CE's lead in every way that matters. There is a difference. The difference is, they might indirectly oppose each other in petty politicking (for instance in the south), but when it really comes down to major issues and conflicts, Tara will always support CE and vice versa. It's the literal definition of a no-brainer.

That said, someone else had a good point, which is that it probably runs both ways. When it comes to those two, the only real question is whether it's the man walking the dog or the dog walking the man. I can see it going either way depending on the situation.

[Telrunya]

That's my point. CE would stick to Tara just the same. Those aren't traits of a Puppet. Those are traits of two very close long-term Allies, you just can't stick anything in between them. Both Realms know each other's worth to the other. Something like, say, the Diocese of Aix on East Continent, THAT was a puppet.

[Eirikr]

Eston was pretty much already dead. They didn't really have any choice, and Darka understands that. I don't think anyone seriously blames Eston for surrendering.

BoM does blame them for not fighting to the last man, but that IS BoM... The one place where it isn't even worth changing. Too much effort not enough gain.

[Geronus]

That's my point. CE would stick to Tara just the same. Those aren't traits of a Puppet. Those are traits of two very close long-term Allies, you just can't stick anything in between them. Both Realms know each other's worth to the other. Something like, say, the Diocese of Aix on East Continent, THAT was a puppet.

Sure, but there are other realms in that bloc that fit that bill.

[jaune]

I know CE's buddies aint total puppets... but power of CE/Tara forces them to be their puppets... i'm pretty damn sure, that those who are not jumping up and right when CE says so... when this war is over, they are looked with angry eye. Example Minas Leon, it has not participated like CE wishes, it will be tolerated cause they are busy... but then again Realston is being good lapdog... so if Realston and ML gets war together...  you can bet CE will send its armies to help out Realston... which is ofcourse rigth thing to do, help out better ally. But we come to the point that CE/Tara block has too much power. They decide who war... or more like who will win the war.

Darka used to be similar factor, i admit... but we were the ones you could buy with gold, CE you can buy only by licking their butt.

[Radigand]

Weird, being an aggressor and competitor is a fine standard, but when two realms join in a cooperative alliance that everyone else is being only be jealous of, it becomes a butt licking. Anyway, it's OK we don't perceive this world the same way. No point in arguing. I'll just have remember, if realm X is CE's puppet I should take it as realm X shares friendly relations with CE.

[jaune]

I would definite puppet that realm does something what it doesnt want to do, because CE says so.

Example Coria didnt help Eston, its ally when CE rolled over them. I counted Coria as puppet... Eston saved Corias butt, but Coria did nothing to save ESton... atleast not in time.

Then there is Strombran which is mainly only ex CE people.. kind of colony without actual culture or its own relations.

Then there is Rielston, who abandoned its home land to join the enemy... not sure if that can be counted as puppet... But they might find them self forced to become puppet of CE... not sure how BoM views them, but atm. Darka doesnt like them... they speed up, if not even caused Estons spine to broke.

Deeper shouteners... i really dont know what to think of those... they just are there... too afraid to do anything... too afraid to even fight each other, cause paw of CE would swing... at some point. CE wants peacefull south while they roam at north.

[Perth]

Maybe if, you know, Kerwin had consulted his allies, he would have realized the mistake he was making before he made it. Important disclaimer: Laszlo was not directly involved in any of these discussions, so maybe Kerwin did; from what Laszlo was told though, Eston's agreement with Coria mostly came out of left field to the rest of the NA, and subsequent allied concerns were largely disregarded.

No, he didn't really consult the others on the matter. At least not much, maybe mentioned it in passing. He didn't feel the need to because of two things:

1) The original war between Coria and Eston broke out PRIOR to the whole "crusade to end CE hegemony" idea. The Eston-Coria war was originally caused because of the infiltrator that Eston allowed to escape that Coria/Tara/CE wanted captured and executed. Kerwin saw himself putting a quick end to a needless war with Coria that his predecessor had started and had resigned because of. Kerwin had bigger dreams.

2) Kerwin always saw himself, and Eston, as leader of the Northern Alliance. This was obviously a flaw and ultimately caused some problems. Eventually, Kerwin realized that KK was a stubborn SOB and wasn't going to do the things Kerwin insisted on him doing, and Kerwin laid back some. But especially very early on Kerwin that is how Kerwin saw himself.

[GoldPanda]

This argument is getting old.

If CE is a puppetmaster of Talerium and Tara, then Eston was a puppetmaster of Darka and BoM. The relationships were fairly analogous as far as I could tell.

I'm starting to think that Kerwin's biggest mistake was to think that he was actually in charge of the Northern Alliance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M