I Hate Food

[^ban^]

I see that you can keep orders on the market for 14 days.  Would a valid stop-gap measure be upping this amount to 30 days immediately? This would off-load some of the stress while dev is done on the new market related features.  (Though, I don't see a single task done every 14 days to be one of great effort.)

No, it wouldn't be helpful.

Food is not produced a month at a time. It is produced in small amounts a day at a time.

[Indirik]

It would be helpful, as a band-aid measure, from the *buyer'* side of the equation. It would allow the spamming of more orders to the marketplace, allowing there to be a greater interval between postings.

[Scarlett]

I don't have much to add from a player POV. Food is semi-tedious in most realms I'm in, very tedious in one - depends how active the lords are. Right, everybody else said that already.

Some historical perspective. I leave whether or not it's useful to this discussion up to you.

Even a third or fourth son in a noble family would not personally oversee bushels of food being moved from point A to point B. Direct involvement in commerce was considered beneath the nobility, though it still happened - sometimes hypocritically, where the King of France would declare that peddling wine was not the province of the nobility, chiefly so that he could take control of the wine business himself. Otherwise, trade was for burghers, not nobles. One reason why guys with jobs like 'master of coin' are usually influential nerds that nobody likes (see Game of Thrones). They spend their time doing !@#$ that big burly warriors don't understand or care about.

So if a nobleman got involved in trade, chances are it was in something sexy. Lots of money involved or else somehow important enough to warrant his attention. So while a nobleman might not order 100 bushels of grain moved in carts from one town to another, he might cut a deal between kingdoms to buy a whole heck of a lot of food as an equalizing factor if you had famine in country A and feast in country B. Or it'd be something like the wool trade. Clergymen and landed nobleman alike got in on this action, usually in the forms of sponsoring market fairs of which they would take a cut.

What has any of this got to do with BM? The way things are now, not much. We don't have a trade system - we have a food system, and there is little parallel with any historical context because there is no siege system. So I would take a step back and ask what the function of the food system is: if that function is limited in scope to providing tension and symbiosis between rural and city regions, then what we have now is a good step in that direction and will be better with some of the solutions already underway.

But particularly with respect to the 'trader' class, what we have now doesn't have much bearing on trade. You'd want to look at trade routes, multiple wares, and tolls if you were interested in something like that. Particularly as one of the harder parts - a functioning market - is already done.

[Tom]

Does it really make it so much simpler to limit it to four weeks? I understand the need not to make it infinite, but why not make it 12 weeks or 1 BM year?

Because I WANT you to stay in contact with the food situation in your realm. And if setting up a few orders once a month is too much to ask for, maybe you shouldn't be a region lord?

[Tom]

They'd rather just say "screw it" and let the food rot and the cities starve, because it doesn't affect them in any way.

I don't see anything wrong with letting realms die that can't motivate their members to put in a tiny bit of effort. I'm all for making it a very small effort, but I'm against making it zero and fully-automatic.

[Anaris]

I don't see anything wrong with letting realms die that can't motivate their members to put in a tiny bit of effort. I'm all for making it a very small effort, but I'm against making it zero and fully-automatic.

I see a false dichotomy here.

Yes, obviously, if the Lords of the realm are totally apathetic and refuse to get off their butts and ever do anything with food, the realm should have major problems. (I would note that it's unlikely that the realm would die even in this situation unless they're in a serious war at the same time. They'll just have some seriously annoying starvation issues in the cities they can't get enough food to. The rurals, in particular, will all be just fine no matter how much food is rotting in their storehouses.)

But a) as has been repeatedly stated here, the problem isn't so much that Lords aren't moving food, it's that they find moving food dead boring and it's killing their enjoyment of the game, and b) even in those cases where Lords are, in fact, refusing to move food, it's almost never at a level that's likely to cause even a single city to go rogue. It's just enough to cause frustration and anger. And most of that frustration and anger is at the system, which is attempting to force a level of engagement that just isn't there.

And finally, Tom, you seem to have forgotten one major point in all this: Lords are no longer the respected and valued members of realms that they used to be. Lords are nearly half of every realm on every continent. No continent currently has even 3 nobles per non-rogue region. This means that if Lord Goodfornothing wants to sit around doing nothing with his region, there's a very good chance that the realm's choices are either put up with it, or lose the region entirely.

Realms very rarely have a choice these days between "good candidate" and "bad candidate" for a Lordship. They have "whoever says he's willing to try". So complaining that players aren't doing it right, and they should be happy with a system that demands they do things they find "not-fun"....yeah, that's a recipe for no more BattleMaster.

[Chenier]

I don't see anything wrong with letting realms die that can't motivate their members to put in a tiny bit of effort. I'm all for making it a very small effort, but I'm against making it zero and fully-automatic.

Back with the caravans, it still required a minimum of effort, because food didn't move itself. But it was possible to be able to both set auto-buy and auto-sell offers.

Aside from the suggestion of removing food altogether, that's pretty much all that has been asked. Nobody is asking for trade to do itself, we are just asking that it only requires one person actively interested in it (usually the buyer), and not two people (as the seller usually has no direct penalties from failing to sell).

[Penchant]

Back with the caravans, it still required a minimum of effort, because food didn't move itself. But it was possible to be able to both set auto-buy and auto-sell offers.

Aside from the suggestion of removing food altogether, that's pretty much all that has been asked. Nobody is asking for trade to do itself, we are just asking that it only requires one person actively interested in it (usually the buyer), and not two people (as the seller usually has no direct penalties from failing to sell).

Actually auto-offers for both does not even require either party to be interested if you have a trader. I like to refer to this situation as a trader's paradise.

[Chenier]

Actually auto-offers for both does not even require either party to be interested if you have a trader. I like to refer to this situation as a trader's paradise.

Right, I hadn't thought of that, but the point remains: only need 1 interested party, instead of two or three.

[Penchant]

Right, I hadn't thought of that, but the point remains: only need 1 interested party, instead of two or three.

That is true.

[Azerax]

I see a false dichotomy here.

Yes, obviously, if the Lords of the realm are totally apathetic and refuse to get off their butts and ever do anything with food, the realm should have major problems. (I would note that it's unlikely that the realm would die even in this situation unless they're in a serious war at the same time. They'll just have some seriously annoying starvation issues in the cities they can't get enough food to. The rurals, in particular, will all be just fine no matter how much food is rotting in their storehouses.)

But a) as has been repeatedly stated here, the problem isn't so much that Lords aren't moving food, it's that they find moving food dead boring and it's killing their enjoyment of the game, and b) even in those cases where Lords are, in fact, refusing to move food, it's almost never at a level that's likely to cause even a single city to go rogue. It's just enough to cause frustration and anger. And most of that frustration and anger is at the system, which is attempting to force a level of engagement that just isn't there.

And finally, Tom, you seem to have forgotten one major point in all this: Lords are no longer the respected and valued members of realms that they used to be. Lords are nearly half of every realm on every continent. No continent currently has even 3 nobles per non-rogue region. This means that if Lord Goodfornothing wants to sit around doing nothing with his region, there's a very good chance that the realm's choices are either put up with it, or lose the region entirely.

Realms very rarely have a choice these days between "good candidate" and "bad candidate" for a Lordship. They have "whoever says he's willing to try". So complaining that players aren't doing it right, and they should be happy with a system that demands they do things they find "not-fun"....yeah, that's a recipe for no more BattleMaster.

insert segue into player density here

[Eldargard]

I don't see anything wrong with letting realms die that can't motivate their members to put in a tiny bit of effort. I'm all for making it a very small effort, but I'm against making it zero and fully-automatic.

Thing is, I do not see permanent auto offers bringing effort to zero. Simple fact is that those offers have to be set up and there will be times where they need to be changed. Beyond that, what I suggested only creates offers automatically. Someone still need to go in and click the BUY or SELL button. The only automation is getting it to market reliably. Additionally, in my proposal, any food buyers still need to keep their Food Fund stocked. Yet another piece of engagement. Depending on how the realm is set up buyers still need to click the buy button to fill the auto sell offers, or sellers need to click sell button to fill auto buy offers. The only way to offload the work from the lords is to have a trader or two do the buying or selling. Plus, should the economic situation change, the auto sell or auto buy orders will need to be updated or the region/realm will suffer negatively. The orders will require some maintenance.

So I am not really sure how auto buy and auto sell orders as I presented earlier, really take away all effort. It simply reduces the effort needed to get food on the market. If combined with capable traders, it has the potential to reduce the effort of lords to a healthy minimum but it dose not reduce the effort to nothing in my opinion!

With Traders (Lowest Effort Option):
Food producing lords set an auto-sell order that brings excess food to market and is done until that order needs updating.
Food buying lords set an auto buy order that brings food to market, continually stocks the Food Fund and is done until the order of Fund needs updating.
Traders of the realm do all the Buying and Selling on the lords behalf while they go off and kill things. (Go partial Buy and Sells!)

No Traders (Heavy Buyer Effort):
Food producing lords set an auto-sell order that brings excess food to market and is done until that order needs updating.
Food buying lords regularly check market and click the buy button as needed. (Go partial Buy and Sells!)
Food producing lords go off and kill things with food buying lords joining in as possible.

No Traders (Heavy Seller Effort):
Food buying lords set an auto buy order that brings food to market, continually stocks the Food Fund and is done until the order of Fund needs updating.
Food selling lords regularly check the market and click the sell button as needed. (Go partial Buy and Sells!)
Food buying lords go off and kill things with food selling lords joining in as possible.
Traders of the realm do all the Buying and Selling on the lords behalf while they go off and kill things. (Go partial Buy and Sells!)

The option I presented does NOT remove effort completely. It reduces effort and frees up some or all region lords to fight. It gives HUGE value to traders within a realm. I am sure there are downsides too but I am in the business of selling my idea right now so I will not go there!

[vonGenf]

Because I WANT you to stay in contact with the food situation in your realm. And if setting up a few orders once a month is too much to ask for, maybe you shouldn't be a region lord?

Imagine you're doing something fun, like fighting a war.

Then you have to abandon the front lines, trek back to a city with a market, to do the exact same thing you had already done a month before. There is absolutely nothing new in the situation. You have already decided you would do this, it is settled, nobody has any interest in changing anything. You just need to stop doing whatever new and fun thing you were doing and go do the unfun old thing.

Over and over and over again. Every month. It's like paying your rent.

Staying in contact is a good thing, but this isn't staying in contact. This is robot-work.

[Tom]

Imagine you're doing something fun, like fighting a war.

Then you have to abandon the front lines, trek back to a city with a market, to do the exact same thing you had already done a month before.

Did you miss where I talked about enabling remote access to home markets?

[vonGenf]

Did you miss where I talked about enabling remote access to home markets?

Right, I replied to the second part without considering the first part. Sorry. There's just many ideas flying around, I tend to answer one at a time, but you had indeed grouped them.