Author Topic: I Hate Food  (Read 65383 times)

Scarlett

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #270: June 08, 2013, 04:10:25 PM »
Region-wide starvation is also a game mechanic more than a historical representation. Even armies that looted and pillaged would typically be taking for themselves rather than rendering a region uninhabitable, so there was no notion of 'we need to take Harfleur, let's be sure we bring buckets of grain for after the conquest.'

There was certainly a lot of scorched earth as well, but even then it was usually on the scale of villages rather than hundreds of square miles. You'd burn fields because you wanted to lay siege to the nearby castle and make sure that there was no food around to be smuggled in. You wouldn't do as we do in BM and, say, pillage all of Normandy to reduce it to some non-functioning wasteland.

Kwanstein

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #271: June 08, 2013, 06:15:53 PM »
Region-wide starvation is also a game mechanic more than a historical representation. Even armies that looted and pillaged would typically be taking for themselves rather than rendering a region uninhabitable, so there was no notion of 'we need to take Harfleur, let's be sure we bring buckets of grain for after the conquest.'

There was certainly a lot of scorched earth as well, but even then it was usually on the scale of villages rather than hundreds of square miles. You'd burn fields because you wanted to lay siege to the nearby castle and make sure that there was no food around to be smuggled in. You wouldn't do as we do in BM and, say, pillage all of Normandy to reduce it to some non-functioning wasteland.

Greeks disagree.

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The defense in depth that Heraclius set up on the Taurus Mountains led to the evolution of the “Shadowing War”. The Byzantine frontier forces would fight a low intensity guerilla campaign while following the Arab armies across Anatolia and the local forces would burn crops and remove populations to make the land hostile to the invader. Once the Arab columns could no longer sustain themselves in the field, the Byzantine army would attack and harass them until they retreated back over the mountains.

Not all of Anatolia was reduced to wasteland, but not all of Anatolia would be represented by a single region.

Also, I remember reading that many Mediterranean islands, aka regions, were totally depopulated due to piracy, aka looting.

Perhaps the ratio of non-functional wastelands in BM is higher than it should be, or perhaps it isn't, but whatever the case this type of thing was not unheard of irl.

Buffalkill

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #272: June 08, 2013, 09:23:34 PM »
You missed the point it's not about planning or stocking. The characteristic time of starvation is days, while the characteristic time of harvest is weeks. While this is the case, food inertia will always be slow relative to starvation. Confer first world, where characteristic time of food supply is minutes. In the former case the food market will be very inelastic and hoardish because fluctuations in demand must be responded to by an approximately static supply.

There are no mysteries in this equation. You know how much food the population consumes and you know how much the region produces each day and you know how much food is in the granary. If you know that it takes a week to acquire or harvest food and distribute it to the population, then make sure you always have a weeks worth of food in the granary. You also know that droughts  and invasions are a fact of life, so plan accordingly.

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Spoken like a strong independent member of the first world who don't need no harvests and caravans.

As a strong independent member of the first world, I can assure you that we still rely on harvests and caravans, except caravans have been replaced with trucks and trains. The reason food in the modern world is usually only minutes away, is because there is a well-managed supply chain. Yes I can walk outside and get bananas from Ecuador, grapes from Chile, and chocolate from Belgium because the manager of my local supermarket ordered those items a few days ago from a warehouse that ordered them a week ago from suppliers that purchased them a month ago from various farmers and chocolatiers. In BattleMaster, the granary is the supermarket and the regional lord is the manager and his job is to make sure the shelves/granaries are properly stocked. If he fails to plan ahead, the food runs out and he loses his job.

Anaris

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #273: June 08, 2013, 09:26:36 PM »
There are no mysteries in this equation.

Yes, there are. And I have already stated them, though you seem to have ignored me.

The mysteries are when droughts will occur, and when your enemies will come and devastate your regions.

If your rural regions are looted to starvation in the autumn, then your cities will starve, unless you have been routinely building up massive surpluses. Which is generally not easy to do.
Timothy Collett

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Indirik

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #274: June 08, 2013, 09:29:23 PM »
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If you know that it takes a week to acquire or harvest food and distribute it to the population, then make sure you always have a weeks worth of food in the granary. You also know that droughts and invasions are a fact of life, so plan accordingly.
While your thoughts are admirable and well-intentioned, what you suggest normally isn't possible. "Make sure you have food" is all well and good, but when your realm doesn't produce enough, and no one will sell, you can't very well "make sure you have enough". You simply cannot buy what isn't for sale. Similar situation with drought. If you don't produce enough to stockpile, then you can't create stockpiles to get you through the tough times.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Buffalkill

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #275: June 08, 2013, 09:53:16 PM »
Yes, there are. And I have already stated them, though you seem to have ignored me.

The mysteries are when droughts will occur, and when your enemies will come and devastate your regions.

I haven't ignored you, I was responding to a comment from somebody else. In any case, you may not know when droughts and invasions will occur, but you know they may occur.

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While your thoughts are admirable and well-intentioned, what you suggest normally isn't possible. "Make sure you have food" is all well and good, but when your realm doesn't produce enough, and no one will sell, you can't very well "make sure you have enough". You simply cannot buy what isn't for sale. Similar situation with drought. If you don't produce enough to stockpile, then you can't create stockpiles to get you through the tough times.

Those are the challenges of the game.

Scarlett

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #276: June 08, 2013, 09:59:17 PM »
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Perhaps the ratio of non-functional wastelands in BM is higher than it should be, or perhaps it isn't, but whatever the case this type of thing was not unheard of irl.

Of course it wasn't, but it wasn't typical for medieval, land-based warfare either. Being anywhere near the Barbary pirates was a different picture.

You do seem to have a lot of trouble with nuanced distinctions when things land somewhere between 'all the time' and 'never happened.' The fact is that pillaging a region until it goes rogue has become a staple of BM war while it was not a staple of medieval war.

You could get a lot closer to being accurate (if that's what you were after) by having region damage top out at 50-60% and making it much more difficult to drive a region rogue. Though if it were up to me I'd have a sort of 'economy and warfare 2.0' rolled up in one where you added siege warfare (making local granaries far more important) but also reduced the ability to eliminate the food supply for a whole realm.

Anaris

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #277: June 08, 2013, 10:05:02 PM »
You could get a lot closer to being accurate (if that's what you were after) by having region damage top out at 50-60% and making it much more difficult to drive a region rogue. Though if it were up to me I'd have a sort of 'economy and warfare 2.0' rolled up in one where you added siege warfare (making local granaries far more important) but also reduced the ability to eliminate the food supply for a whole realm.

Well...we're actually planning some changes quite similar to those in the not-too-distant future (though the siege changes are a bit more distant).
Timothy Collett

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Kai

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #278: June 09, 2013, 08:40:00 AM »
If you know that it takes a week to acquire or harvest food and distribute it to the population, then make sure you always have a weeks worth of food in the granary. You also know that droughts  and invasions are a fact of life, so plan accordingly.

As a strong independent member of the first world, I can assure you that we still rely on harvests and caravans, except caravans have been replaced with trucks and trains. The reason food in the modern world is usually only minutes away, is because there is a well-managed supply chain. Yes I can walk outside and get bananas from Ecuador, grapes from Chile, and chocolate from Belgium because the manager of my local supermarket ordered those items a few days ago from a warehouse that ordered them a week ago from suppliers that purchased them a month ago from various farmers and chocolatiers. In BattleMaster, the granary is the supermarket and the regional lord is the manager and his job is to make sure the shelves/granaries are properly stocked. If he fails to plan ahead, the food runs out and he loses his job.

Yes you are correct that the way to play is to hoard as much as possible and hope your realm runs a surplus. Now you can move on to the idea that the result of this is that everyone hates food, it is boring and offers few ways to succeed and many harsh penalties for failure.

You should also note in the first world that the interesting trade and supply chain mechanics you detail only function when there is a vast surplus of food already.

vonGenf

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #279: June 09, 2013, 10:34:18 AM »
Region-wide starvation is also a game mechanic more than a historical representation. Even armies that looted and pillaged would typically be taking for themselves rather than rendering a region uninhabitable, so there was no notion of 'we need to take Harfleur, let's be sure we bring buckets of grain for after the conquest.'

There was certainly a lot of scorched earth as well, but even then it was usually on the scale of villages rather than hundreds of square miles. You'd burn fields because you wanted to lay siege to the nearby castle and make sure that there was no food around to be smuggled in. You wouldn't do as we do in BM and, say, pillage all of Normandy to reduce it to some non-functioning wasteland.

I'm not sure this is accurate, e.g.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_north

After all it's a roleplaying game.

Scarlett

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #280: June 09, 2013, 08:36:24 PM »
Yes, it happened. It was not ordinary, and only under extenuating circumstances became the go-to strategy for typical medieval warfare. This may not seem like the huge distinction some of you are looking for, but it is a distinction.

William the Conquerer is one of the few examples of a noble from culture A sailing over and completely conquering a large piece of land from culture B whereupon he and his vassals and descendants held it for more than a little while. One of the characteristics of this conflict that distinguished it from a lot of medieval warfare is that he was totally uninterested in ruling the people who lived in the Saxon-held North -- some of them, anyway, since he did end up assimilating a significant number despite the harrying.

The other big example of this kind of thing was in the Hundred Years' War, when it was called Chevauchée. Two key features:

- Both the French and the English shifted to it because of the Black Death: neither side had the manpower for protracted siege warfare any longer. The English also didn't have the best leadership after Edward III until Henry V came around.
- Although a lot of damage was done, it also just didn't really work. It caused a lot of misery but it didn't result in lots of land changing hands, because it diverges from BM in that pillaged regions wouldn't 'go rogue' - if you couldn't occupy and hold an area, it might produce a crap harvest for a year, but it still belonged to whomever it had belonged to before after that.

The period between the death of Edward III and Henry V was the high point for this kind of thing and the low point for actual progress in the war (on either side). Henry V turned things around and stopped doing it as much (the famous 'when thou art King, do not hang a thief' bit) and his were the last great gains made by the English during the war.

This may seem like an academic distinction and it certainly isn't a complaint. The way BM is right now, the system more or less makes sense. It sounds like the devs are already working on some good long-term solutions. The only other suggestion I'd make is to further reduce the influence of peasants on who holds regions: peasants kicking out lords is still way too common in BM, or at the very least, it happens for the wrong reasons. But that leads to a larger discussion: medieval warfare did not feature 'takeovers' at all, but sieges and occupying castles. If you held the castle, you held the region. The business of 'convincing the populace' or replacing the bureaucrats is a BM invention, at least until you start getting into the Renaissance and more urban warfare with cannon - at which point 'conquering a city' did require that you consider the burghers and bureaucrats more because the burghers and bureaucrats controlled a lot more of the purse strings.


Penchant

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #281: June 10, 2013, 03:45:50 AM »
I'm not sure this is accurate, e.g.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_north
Which tool several campaigns whereas a large army in BM that outnumbers the enemy so they can't stop them can take out several regions in under a week.
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
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Blue Star

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #282: June 15, 2013, 01:31:47 AM »
Hey I just saw this so ill drop my two cent o wait I have a nickle score.

All I see is whining... complain complain complain food has been here and should stay. If your realm can't produce more get off your butt and go grab some surplus regions from your neighbors. Food is a good reason to go to war better than some king saying only I can wear red capes you have to wear blue ones. If your realm can get people to trade food with you, your doing it wrong.... If your population is starving look at why it failing first.

Regions lords are responsible make them accountable for not trading.

Food is so powerful! You literally can starve not just your enemy regions into submission, but your own if need have for it. If said Duke/margrave was well getting on my nerves and I was a surplus region and he was trying to buy food for 10 gold per 100 bushel, i'd tell others to refuse to sell him food until he raised it to 30-40 else the pompous Duke would act quickly to please us of the surplus or have to start looking outside the realm.   

Surplus regions for the win! never worry about food and sell it to make ends meet and to buy nice trinkets for yourself!

Banker's are so gonna love being able to move food. With great power comes great responsibility or great power comes with new
I think like a sinner. Curse like a sailor. Smile like a saint. :)

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #283: June 15, 2013, 08:24:58 AM »
*snip*

Yeah, by chance, what realms are you a part of?

egamma

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Re: I Hate Food
« Reply #284: June 15, 2013, 03:39:15 PM »
Yeah, by chance, what realms are you a part of?

From his posts, CE and Fontan.