Long Distance Wars Impossible?

[Perth]

1. Long-Distance wars allow large powerful realms to prevent conflict amongst other realms far away from their true sphere of power. This limits inter-activity and allows a single concerted power base to ruin fun interactions between others.

2. A coalition of forces can engage in wars which gain them nothing except hurting other realms or players. With a limitation placed upon what distances they can reasonable engage in conflict, they are forced to consider conflicts much closer to home, and more realistically applicable to their characters and their own realm's ambitions.

3. To discourage gang-bang politics.

(Just some of my thoughts, and from what I've drawn of Tom stating elsewhere, all kind of meshed together)

I think all of this swings the other way as well, though, Silverfire. Long distance wars allow all those smaller realms to be able to work together to fight the larger, dominating realm. The case on Dwilight is an example of that. Aurvandil is the largest realm on the continent, and the smaller realms around it stand no chance. Only with long distance warfare can the smaller realms ever hope to garner support to challenge the big realm.

You think being cooped in in a boat over any distance is good for morale?  It's absolutely terrible.  Being stuffed into conditions more crowded than any field camp would ever be, a significant percentage of them seasick, and even the friendliest of seas have storms to exacerbate all of those problems.

Right. So the first thing that happens when you make landfall is for all your soliders to go "Hey, that sucked! Let's get back on the boat right away and sail home!" No. they are going to be hungry, angry, horny, and looking for some loot to make it worth their while. If you give that to them, they should remain relatively happy, if not, then they begin to want to desert.



I thank Tom for being willing to take a look at the morale issues. I understand long distance warfare is supposed to be difficult. It should take a LOT of coordination, discipline, and most of all GOLD. But if people are capable of putting all of those things together, I don't think they should be jipped by a huge morale penalty in one turn after they land. If they lose a battle? Sure, absolutely. I agree with Vellos though, some kind of Mercenary ratio of gold to morale would be great for this.

[Dante Silverfire]

I think all of this swings the other way as well, though, Silverfire. Long distance wars allow all those smaller realms to be able to work together to fight the larger, dominating realm. The case on Dwilight is an example of that. Aurvandil is the largest realm on the continent, and the smaller realms around it stand no chance. Only with long distance warfare can the smaller realms ever hope to garner support to challenge the big realm.

Um, Aurvandil isn't the largest realm on Dwilight. Luria Nova and Astrum are the largest realms on Dwilight. Aurvandil is tied for 6th with their opponent Terran.

They have the most nobles, but that has nothing to do with size. It is my assertion that the higher your noble per region ratio, the more fun your realm is, because it means that more nobles are retained, less nobles leave, and you're attracting nobles to your realm somehow.

Also, smaller realms already have advantages against larger realms. They have cheaper recruiting, and if fighting a defensive war have all sorts of better control bonuses, as well as shorter refit times. Terran doesn't need allies from Morek to come down to help them. They need allies in Barca, allies in Fissoa and Luria Nova. Morek, Asylon, and stuff have no real business fighting Aurvandil.

[Dante Silverfire]

Another thing: Aurvandil WITH long distance war limitations is not a threat to all of these northern SA realms. However, when you remove the limitations they become a potential threat.

The idea should be that Aurvandil wields competitive diplomatic control in its small area, but not be able to control the entire continent.

[Perth]

Um, Aurvandil isn't the largest realm on Dwilight. Luria Nova and Astrum are the largest realms on Dwilight. Aurvandil is tied for 6th with their opponent Terran.

They have the most nobles, but that has nothing to do with size. It is my assertion that the higher your noble per region ratio, the more fun your realm is, because it means that more nobles are retained, less nobles leave, and you're attracting nobles to your realm somehow.

In a BM era where Noble Count is so crucial, if you have the most nobles you are almost de facto the most powerful realm on the island. There is a reason why Darka and CE are the two most formidable military forces on Atamara and it doesn't have to do with their region count, but strongly with their large amount of nobles. This is a game where blobbing wins wars. More nobles means more blobbing.

[Dante Silverfire]

In a BM era where Noble Count is so crucial, if you have the most nobles you are almost de facto the most powerful realm on the island. There is a reason why Darka and CE are the two most formidable military forces on Atamara and it doesn't have to do with their region count, but strongly with their large amount of nobles. This is a game where blobbing wins wars. More nobles means more blobbing.

I know.

But, do you not think the noble count has some other meanings? Aurvandil didn't always have over 70 nobles. They do so now, but they used to be much smaller. They grow stronger because they keep the environment fun and engaging for their nobles. It isn't that other realms don't, but Aurvandil obviously does this the best. Otherwise they wouldn't have the most nobles.

The same applies to Darka and CE on Atamara. They obviously have created an environment where players are interested in playing in.

I don't think the game needs to create situations where those realms that have managed to secure player interest are able to be combated by every single other realm on the continent. That isn't ideal in any case.

I fully understand why Terran and Aurvandil are fighting, but it makes no sense for Aurvandil and Morek to fight. That is a long-distance war, whereby Morek literally has nothing to gain from the fight. Allies? Why do they need Terran as an ally? Terran can't help Morek with any wars, they are also too far away.

This situation while it is a self-fulfilling prophecy also just makes sense. Imagine for a second that Aurvandil wasn't a realm which just throws diplomacy out the window, but instead was a realm that just wanted to try some new things and have fun doing random things. They manage to gather a large noble base, but the entire rest of the continent wants to ruin that. So, they all declare war, and simply wipe them out. Continent wide preventions against new realms could be enforced. Continent wide conduct regarding any sort of thing could be enforced. Once a single group reaches power, it would be impossible to remove them from power if long-distance wars are possible. Opening this up too wide is just ripe for exploits and abuses.

[Tom]

No, you misunderstand. Warfare across the entire game map should not be difficult, it should be next to impossible.

[Penchant]

No, you misunderstand. Warfare across the entire game map should not be difficult, it should be next to impossible.

Next to impossible means it can be done with a !@#$ ton of effort. As of right now it cant. Also, with 5k CS costing the price of 25kCS it makes it next to impossible to maintain but can be done every once in awhile. I don't see why that is unreasonable if they only help a battle once a month with 5k CS or less, and its costing a !@#$ ton.

[Tom]

Next to impossible means it can be done with a !@#$ ton of effort.

You are still trying to read things into my words that I didn't put there.

Let me be clear: It should be impossible, period.

The reason I'm cushioning my words a little is to avoid any discussion about where exactly the "though shall not pass" line is, because there is no such thing. The penalties increase with distance so that there is not one precise distance at which it suddenly becomes impossible.

I don't want it to be a matter of effort or cost or whatever. I want it to be so darn crazy insanely difficult that it doesn't happen.


Until very recently, that worked just the way it should. You went further away from home, you noticed penalties increasing ever more and you turned around. With the addition of sea travel, you can hit the crazy insane penalty zone seemingly instantly, when you disembark.

That is the only thing that makes me say we might want to reconsider something. Because so far, you would never get to the 60% penalty point, because the 50% the day before and the 40% two days ago and the 30% three days ago... would prevent you from even reaching that point.

[Perth]

I know.

But, do you not think the noble count has some other meanings? Aurvandil didn't always have over 70 nobles. They do so now, but they used to be much smaller. They grow stronger because they keep the environment fun and engaging for their nobles. It isn't that other realms don't, but Aurvandil obviously does this the best. Otherwise they wouldn't have the most nobles.

The same applies to Darka and CE on Atamara. They obviously have created an environment where players are interested in playing in.

I agree. And I think the realms that are doing things right to create fun environments for people to play should have the ability to knock out those realms that aren't. By and large, they do. But in Dwilight's case, they can't.

Aurvandil could be the most fun realm of all time to play in, but they can't do jack to punish the "non-fun" realms in the North of Dwilight. They should be able to.

[Chenier]

I fully understand why Terran and Aurvandil are fighting, but it makes no sense for Aurvandil and Morek to fight. That is a long-distance war, whereby Morek literally has nothing to gain from the fight. Allies? Why do they need Terran as an ally? Terran can't help Morek with any wars, they are also too far away.

Makes no sense to you, perhaps, but it makes enough sense to enough people to try it regardless of penalties and consequences.

"litterally nothing to gain" if rather relative. They obviously found reasons to. And despite the fact that I seriously doubt having allies for defense has anything at all to do with it, that statement is just false, because Terran is within striking distance of people who are within striking distance of Morek. But if you only base your diplomacy on this kind of things, then you are just bad at diplomacy.

Realms have more to offer to each other than just alliances, and there are more reasons to go to war than just alliances too.

[Vellos]

but it makes no sense for Aurvandil and Morek to fight.

The players there, or in Astrum or Iashalur or wherever, may disagree. If they do, you are wrong. You don't get to be judge of what makes sense for other players.

Let me be clear: It should be impossible, period.

Right, we can see that.

The question is: why? Or, stated otherwise, "Would the game be better served if that were not the case?"

i.e. if morale penalties scaled based on continent size, for example. Or the increasing gold ratio mentioned earlier.

[Indirik]

The northern realms have plenty of reasons to see Aurvandil attacked or destroyed. They just don't have anything to do with "Aurvandil can put an army on my border next week". And that doesn't mean their reasons are invalid, either.

[Dante Silverfire]

Makes no sense to you, perhaps, but it makes enough sense to enough people to try it regardless of penalties and consequences.

"litterally nothing to gain" if rather relative. They obviously found reasons to.

The players there, or in Astrum or Iashalur or wherever, may disagree. If they do, you are wrong. You don't get to be judge of what makes sense for other players.

The northern realms have plenty of reasons to see Aurvandil attacked or destroyed. They just don't have anything to do with "Aurvandil can put an army on my border next week". And that doesn't mean their reasons are invalid, either.

Fallacy, Fallacy, Fallacy.

Why do y'all act like I'm trying to comment on other's gameplay? I'm not. What I'm trying to do is perhaps give you some reasons to consider, and help fill in some of the possible reasons that this may be the policy that Tom has implemented. So he doesn't have to write out a detailed explanation to everything, perhaps I'm just writing out what I suppose to be some of the many cases.

If someone jumps off a cliff and gets upset that they broke their leg, and asks why this is the case, and simply gets told that such is wrong and shouldn't be done. Then, still wondering why, they continue to jump off cliffs hurting themselves regardless of consequences or being told that such isn't intended, both by obvious world-created consequences then they are the ones doing something wrong. You don't need an explanation to know that if you're getting hit with repeated penalties to see that "hey, perhaps what I'm doing isn't correct."

I can come up with reasons why people are trying to fight this war. Whether they are correct or not, I don't know but some of them certainly make sense. I'm not judging people, but I can understand why some of these behaviors are better or worse for game health long-term. Also note, this list is only for those realms NORTH of the D'Hara/Terran/Luria Nova line.

1. They are bored and want someone to fight.
2. They've created a permanent peace lock, and so they literally can't fight anyone else than someone so far south, without risking a gang-bang for breaking the peace.
3. They don't want to fight another SA realm. (Doesn't make sense to me, as Christian nations fought and fight all the time, but not for me to judge).
4. They are losing nobles, and need someway to try and keep them around. (See #1)
5. Allies asked them to. (See #2)
6. Religious fight against "heathens"
7. They are a threat to SA. (Simply not true, because they themselves can't expand to encompass the whole island)

The question though is, does it really matter why the north is fighting Aurvandil? NO! It doesn't. What matters is that the game discourages you from doing it, because this course of action and thinking protects game play situations which lead to toxic atmospheres. It is a defense against toxicity and exploits so that a single group of players can't ruin the fun for everyone else. This is what I believe is the primary reason, but no one seems to want to address that. It is also why I believe we should look as to what the other causes are here because that will indicate perhaps why such wars are discouraged highly.

[Kwanstein]

I've said it before, there are two things which drive diplomacy in this game. The first thing is prudence, players want to see their realm do well, so they will naturally and unconsciously choose the diplomatic paths which are most sensible. The second thing is role play, the idea that instead of a player conducting himself in a manner that he prefers, he might act counter to his own benefit by playing in favour of the character he invented.

These two types of behaviour are in conflict, due to the fact that the character cannot exist apart from the player and so is subject to the player's neural make-up and conditioning. One might reasonably compare this conflict to the sort of conflict which the guy in FIGHT CLUB experienced. The guy in FIGHT CLUB wanted to play the character he/society had created for himself (the buttoned down desk jockey) but was subconsciously foiled by his inner self, his Tyler Durden. Tyler Durden was the manifestation of Edward Norton's base character, a concept-made-physical which Edward Norton could not deny. Try as he might to play to his character's benefit, he could not deny his primordial lust for violence and other base instincts and so was constantly confronted by Tyler, who drove him to abandon his character and revert to his primitive nature.

This type of thing is why Morek Empire is at war with Aurvandil. The players know that there is no practical cause for it, however by denying their nature they have gone ahead with it anyway. For, it is for their characters' benefit somehow, I do not know how, I am not privy to diplomacy, but the specific reason need not matter -- only that it is there. So, Dante, that is how Morek's war with Aurvandil is justified (and it needs no justification other than the players' self-justification; might is right and if it is within their might to engage in an activity then it is outside of anyone else's ability or right to stop them). Perhaps, some day, they will be presented with their own Tyler Durdens. Scaled appropriately to the level of which they have breached their human nature.

[Penchant]

I've said it before, there are two things which drive diplomacy in this game. The first thing is prudence, players want to see their realm do well, so they will naturally and unconsciously choose the diplomatic paths which are most sensible. The second thing is role play, the idea that instead of a player conducting himself in a manner that he prefers, he might act counter to his own benefit by playing in favour of the character he invented.

These two types of behaviour are in conflict, due to the fact that the character cannot exist apart from the player and so is subject to the player's neural make-up and conditioning. One might reasonably compare this conflict to the sort of conflict which the guy in FIGHT CLUB experienced. The guy in FIGHT CLUB wanted to play the character he/society had created for himself (the buttoned down desk jockey) but was subconsciously foiled by his inner self, his Tyler Durden. Tyler Durden was the manifestation of Edward Norton's base character, a concept-made-physical which Edward Norton could not deny. Try as he might to play to his character's benefit, he could not deny his primordial lust for violence and other base instincts and so was constantly confronted by Tyler, who drove him to abandon his character and revert to his primitive nature.

This type of thing is why Morek Empire is at war with Aurvandil. The players know that there is no practical cause for it, however by denying their nature they have gone ahead with it anyway. For, it is for their characters' benefit somehow, I do not know how, I am not privy to diplomacy, but the specific reason need not matter -- only that it is there. So, Dante, that is how Morek's war with Aurvandil is justified (and it needs no justification other than the players' self-justification; might is right and if it is within their might to engage in an activity then it is outside of anyone else's ability or right to stop them). Perhaps, some day, they will be presented with their own Tyler Durdens. Scaled appropriately to the level of which they have breached their human nature.

I deeply dislike people like you. You came in stating your opinion as fact and assuming things about other people , and also stating that as fact too. I see you not extremely off with the diplomacy thing though I disagree on several things with that. As to why Morek is at war, there are many reasons which eventually ended up convincing them to join the war, not just that they got bored OOC and wanted to fight.