Set Battle-Width by Region Type

[Indirik]

This will require new formations. Terrain-dependent formations. The Marshals can decide who goes up front.

[vonGenf]

The player of the cavalry will complain that his unit had more CS and wanted to charge and should've been in front, not the stupid peasants.

One hour later, there will be a feature request to make deploy order a configurable feature, or let the marshal decide, or whatever.

Wanna bet? :-)

This will require new formations. Terrain-dependent formations. The Marshals can decide who goes up front.

9 minutes, 49 seconds.  ::)

[Indirik]

A review and revamp of the marshal formations should be included as part of this feature request. This is a very significant change. Even if the code turns out to be easy to do for it, that doesn't mean we don't have to evaluate and deal with the impact on other systems.

[vonGenf]

A review and revamp of the marshal formations should be included as part of this feature request. This is a very significant change. Even if the code turns out to be easy to do for it, that doesn't mean we don't have to evaluate and deal with the impact on other systems.

New formations can conceivably be added. I don't think unit-by-unit control is required at all.

Yes, a large army going through a mountain region could end up in some very unexpected formation that completely ruins their chances. That's kind of the point, really. I want this to happen.

Fighting in rurals would remain as it is.

[Anaris]

A review and revamp of the marshal formations should be included as part of this feature request. This is a very significant change. Even if the code turns out to be easy to do for it, that doesn't mean we don't have to evaluate and deal with the impact on other systems.

We need new Marshal formations anyway. Half the existing ones (most notably, IIRC, You Shall Not Pass) were obsoleted with the changes to the combat system a year or two ago.

[Naidraug]

A review and revamp of the marshal formations should be included as part of this feature request. This is a very significant change. Even if the code turns out to be easy to do for it, that doesn't mean we don't have to evaluate and deal with the impact on other systems.

Scout reports need to change as well to inform the size of the rows on the regions. Taking into consideration mountain size, or wall size on a city.

[Bedwyr]

I think egamma's solution for who gets to be in what line will work nicely coupled with Tim's "stick everyone else in the last line".  New Marshal formation are desperately needed in any case, so I don't see that as a particular problem.  And if every region type has a fixed battle-width, I don't think scout reports will need to be changed at all.

[Tom]

I didn't intend to spike this. But the more you think about the consequences, the more you realize just how much this changes. Next is archery and formation (unit, not marshal). A skirmish formation takes a lot more space than a box formation, and a line formation would take up more width then a wedge formation. Do we want to take that into account as well? If not, why not, because it appears to be the most obvious thing that players can influence in order to affect deployment width.

[Indirik]

I'm not saying that we need per-unit control at the marshal level. But marshal formations control where units line up based on unit type. When the marshal formation says cav in front, then cav goes in front no matter what, even if it leaves holes.

The unit formations is a good point. That can be handled with a modifier for formation. Call wedge the base at 1x, line at 1.25x, skirmish at 1.5x, and box at .8x. (Just for agument's sake, adjust as needed.)

[Dante Silverfire]

Simplest solution (relatively) is to just let Marshals be able to choose formations that place units in lines based upon unit type.

Don't give marshals control of formation, continue to keep that with troop leaders. Formation should also most definitely affect number of units in battle wide. Skirmish though should be like x2. Skirmish really was supposed to be a spread out formation, so you wouldn't get destroyed by arrows. This is especially important if this change is made because well placed archers will decimate in long drawn-out battles.

[Bedwyr]

I didn't intend to spike this. But the more you think about the consequences, the more you realize just how much this changes. Next is archery and formation (unit, not marshal). A skirmish formation takes a lot more space than a box formation, and a line formation would take up more width then a wedge formation. Do we want to take that into account as well? If not, why not, because it appears to be the most obvious thing that players can influence in order to affect deployment width.

Tom, I agree that it would make sense for that to matter.  And I would love for it to do so.  But I think the important thing is to have something basic done now, then work on expanding it later to make it more awesome.  I have seen way, way, way too many features never get done because of all the additions people thought of.

As for the number of things I've thought of, I assure you I could fill pages with the elaborations I would love to see.  But I'm trying really, really hard to keep this simple.

[Penchant]

Tom, I agree that it would make sense for that to matter.  And I would love for it to do so.  But I think the important thing is to have something basic done now, then work on expanding it later to make it more awesome.  I have seen way, way, way too many features never get done because of all the additions people thought of.

As for the number of things I've thought of, I assure you I could fill pages with the elaborations I would love to see.  But I'm trying really, really hard to keep this simple.

Unit formation should just be something it checks and multiplies accordingly so its just a few more lines of code I believe. Personally, unless some other things are done with this to fix the situation, I kinda hate it as the only way to organize your army properly for a battle is through a ton of micromanaging.

Not only would you need to send TL's each their own line settings but also it requires knowing the exact count of troops, not an estimation though marshal might get that. Basically it !@#$s up so much in a way that is not tactics, just !@#$ing stuff up if you don't carefully micromanage all of your initial troops into their proper position and just have the rest getting put to the rear. While formations actually shouldn't be screwed up too much when only one army as the set up should stay the same pretty much, ie an archer opening still has archers in front, but if its not a formation you will have a lot of situations getting screwed up when they shouldn't be unless their is a lot of micromanagement, IMO. I am not trying to be rude or discourage the feature, it just seems like it needs some changes to add fun most the time.

[Tom]

Don't give marshals control of formation, continue to keep that with troop leaders.

Uh... some advanced marshal orders already change formations of units. So there's no "continue" here.

[Dante Silverfire]

Uh... some advanced marshal orders already change formations of units. So there's no "continue" here.

I know. But what I mean, is don't just give full control to marshals with complete freedom. They shouldn't be able to just choose where each unit goes and what it does. The game becomes a 10 person game at that point.

Sure, let high leadership matter to give more options, but any old marshal shouldn't be able to control an entire battle.

[Foundation]

The current marshal formations already move everyone around. So you mean to say give no more fine-grained control than there already exists?