Mendicant Cheating

[Kwanstein]

Identifying with realms is something that I can't emphasize with. Saying that someone benefited because his realm benefited makes no sense. Sure, a realm's success can be good for an individual noble (it could lead to him being given conquered region, for example), but the goodness is not intrinsic, it is dependent on circumstances.

In the case of Aurvandil, it's nobles are supposed to have benefited by having conquered a number of regions to distribute amongst themselves. This point is denied by the fact that Mendicant personally ruled over the majority of those regions up until recently. It was, in fact, to the detriment of the nobility that Mendicant existed, because without him they could have achieved Lordship much more easily. They spent years serving that guy and gaining nothing, when they could have spent a week in Corsanctum to gain much more.

So, really, how have Aurvandil's nobility benefited from this? They have gained an unsavoury reputation, wasted effort over the years by working for Mendicant without compensation, and now, when Mendicant's scheme is finally exposed, they inherit only a dozen mediocre regions. This all seems to be to their detriment.

You all are confusing the individual nobles with the realm, methinks. As I explained, the individuals did not achieve personal success. It was the realm that did. So, it would make sense to punish the realm. However, the realm is not sentient, so it cannot actually be punished (tu te rends compte!). As a substitute, the individuals are proposed (a tout seigneur tout honneur!). The flaws in this reasoning speak for themselves.

[BarticaBoat]

To pretend that having a network of 11 accounts, each with 2-3 nobles each, doesn't make a realm obscenely powerful is silly. Besides the extra 11 nobles in Aurvandil itself or directly bringing land to Aurvandil via defection, there were up to 22 nobles in different continents leeching gold and sending it to family treasuries to facilitate near constant region investments. To run a realm at 180% production with 22% tax rates eternally? Are you willfully ignorant? That doesn't affect anything? Do you actually believe that's possible otherwise?

Is it fair to see the REAL LIFE YEARS of all the players in realms surrounding Aurvandil thrown down the drain by some jackass who wanted to win?

Tbh, for you to all sit in a realm terrified of being persecuted and blindly following orders with no hope of advancement you're not playing a medieval sim. You're being lazy roleplayers. Take offense to that personally all you want, a medieval noble would never, ever tolerate that. And for you to claim you've put in work and you deserve to benefit from the bounties of cheating... wow. The entire region is shattered at your feet and you still think you're victims. I hope the Zuma attack Aurvandil so you can all try actually playing Battlemaster to see what it's about.

[Chenier]

To pretend that having a network of 11 accounts, each with 2-3 nobles each, doesn't make a realm obscenely powerful is silly. Besides the extra 11 nobles in Aurvandil itself or directly bringing land to Aurvandil via defection, there were up to 22 nobles in different continents leeching gold and sending it to family treasuries to facilitate near constant region investments. To run a realm at 180% production with 22% tax rates eternally? Are you willfully ignorant? That doesn't affect anything? Do you actually believe that's possible otherwise?

Is it fair to see the REAL LIFE YEARS of all the players in realms surrounding Aurvandil thrown down the drain by some jackass who wanted to win?

Tbh, for you to all sit in a realm terrified of being persecuted and blindly following orders with no hope of advancement you're not playing a medieval sim. You're being lazy roleplayers. Take offense to that personally all you want, a medieval noble would never, ever tolerate that. And for you to claim you've put in work and you deserve to benefit from the bounties of cheating... wow. The entire region is shattered at your feet and you still think you're victims. I hope the Zuma attack Aurvandil so you can all try actually playing Battlemaster to see what it's about.

This, pretty much.

Aurvandil still has a lot of nobles, and Asylon has drawn a lot of the fire away from you. The legit players that remain can try to rebuild the realm fairly.

Because nobody in Aurvandil suffered unduly. They are all benefiting quite a lot from it, actually. The argument that they were oppressed is utterly ridiculous as others have said alongside myself: they all chose this way of life, they all chose to submit themselves to Mendicant. It's not as if there were free elections all the time that ended up being rigged, either. It was fairly obvious to all that Mendicant & co were there to stay. Heck, you guys are even moving to immortalize the damn cheater. Aurvandil isn't condemning Mendicant, YOU ARE GLORIFYING HIM.

So what's justice? To leave a realm of collaborators that glorify a cheater the entirety of his spoils, with a super strong realm in an isolated corner and surrounded by crippled neighbors, or to cripple the realm of collaborators that glorify a cheater to bring them to at least the same level as the realms with nothing but honest players that they used cheating to defeat?

Your random use of French makes no sense, either. I never asked for the collaborators that glorify a cheater to be stripped of all titled, locked for a week, and banished from ever holding a title in the future, so I don't see  how you can claim that I am proposing that the individuals be punished as a substitute for punishing the realm, when I made it quite clear that it was only the realm I wanted targetted by the wrath of the Zuma. Maybe not even fully destroyed, but at least hurt as much as the Long Winter hurt us.

[Glaumring the Fox]

ummm the long winter hurt us more... 

[Zakilevo]

It is quite hilarious to see some people self-victimizing themselves. I don't know why Aurvanil players are saying they are the victims. To my eyes, they are the benefactors of the actions of the player of Mendicant. I mean the player of Mendicant lied for months about the efficiency of his realm. Many people knew Aurvandil alone could not possibly generate enough income to support 40k CS army.

From my perspective, it seems people are self-victimizing themselves since they are afraid that they cannot enjoy what they have enjoyed before - crushing other realms which could not do what Mendicant did.

What are they victims of? The dev team only locked Mendicant's accounts away. They did not destroy Aurvandil or lock people who defended his lies. You people are not victims. The real victims are people who played in the realms around Aurvandil. They were the ones who had to deal with Mendicant's cheating ass.

[Chenier]

She probably would have been kicked out. The writing was already on the wall. Too many people were too unhappy with her. She had been permanently denied any form of control or authority in the religion. For Allison, that's as good as kicking her out.

Only if she let you. You can't kick out priest(esse)s, and "permanent" can often turn out to be rather temporary.

I'm sorry, but this just proves that you have no idea what's going on in the world outside D'Hara.
Destroyed Thulsoma. Destroyed Caerwyn. Founded Iashalur. Founded Swordfell. Killed Summerdale.

So, yeah, pretty much nothing.

O rly? I didn't know that Aurvandil was around when almost all of the things you mentionned occured. You should have put "destruction of Springdale" in there, fits well in your series of events from far ago. And even then... Morek and Astrum get no credit for destroying Thulsoma and Caerwyn, these guys threw themselves at you. As for founding colonies, big whoop. And even then, even Aurvandil founded two, and even a much smaller realm that didn't live as long, Madina, spawned a whole ton more. Morek and Astrum are passive. Doesn't mean they never ever do anything, but they don't do much and most of what they do is of little consequence (uncolonized corners of the world would inevitably end up colonized by someone else) or pretty much imposed upon them by outside factors.

Not gonna happen, no matter how much you scream and yell that it should. Treat it like any other bug, and play through it.

Tell me, if a bug grants my dude command over 100,000 CS of daimons, is Tom seriously gonna say "oh, just play it through". I seriously doubt it. Compensating D'Hara, Madina, Terran, Barca, Luria Vesperi, Iashalur, Fissoa, and whoever else was screwed in one way or another by the cheater would be against game policy, sure. But removing undue gains acquired from unintended behavior, not so much.

These guys are glorifying the damn cheater, for god's sake. How more disgusting can this get?

[Indirik]

O rly? I didn't know that Aurvandil was around when almost all of the things you mentionned occured.

...surprise?

Morek and Astrum get no credit for destroying Thulsoma and Caerwyn, these guys threw themselves at you.

Then I think we can say that Aurvandil gets no credit for destroying Barca (come on, we're talking about Barca here, how tough was that?) or Terran (they could have had peace any time they wanted.)

Tell me, if a bug grants my dude command over 100,000 CS of daimons, is Tom seriously gonna say "oh, just play it through".

If it ever happens, you'll find out. After all, he's let realms keep tens of thousands of gold that they have stumbled upon, completely by accident, through various bugs.

[Kwanstein]

It is quite hilarious to see some people self-victimizing themselves. I don't know why Aurvanil players are saying they are the victims. To my eyes, they are the benefactors of the actions of the player of Mendicant. I mean the player of Mendicant lied for months about the efficiency of his realm. Many people knew Aurvandil alone could not possibly generate enough income to support 40k CS army.

From my perspective, it seems people are self-victimizing themselves since they are afraid that they cannot enjoy what they have enjoyed before - crushing other realms which could not do what Mendicant did.

What are they victims of? The dev team only locked Mendicant's accounts away. They did not destroy Aurvandil or lock people who defended his lies. You people are not victims. The real victims are people who played in the realms around Aurvandil. They were the ones who had to deal with Mendicant's cheating ass.

This, pretty much.

Aurvandil still has a lot of nobles, and Asylon has drawn a lot of the fire away from you. The legit players that remain can try to rebuild the realm fairly.

Because nobody in Aurvandil suffered unduly. They are all benefiting quite a lot from it, actually. The argument that they were oppressed is utterly ridiculous as others have said alongside myself: they all chose this way of life, they all chose to submit themselves to Mendicant. It's not as if there were free elections all the time that ended up being rigged, either. It was fairly obvious to all that Mendicant & co were there to stay. Heck, you guys are even moving to immortalize the damn cheater. Aurvandil isn't condemning Mendicant, YOU ARE GLORIFYING HIM.

So what's justice? To leave a realm of collaborators that glorify a cheater the entirety of his spoils, with a super strong realm in an isolated corner and surrounded by crippled neighbors, or to cripple the realm of collaborators that glorify a cheater to bring them to at least the same level as the realms with nothing but honest players that they used cheating to defeat?

Your random use of French makes no sense, either. I never asked for the collaborators that glorify a cheater to be stripped of all titled, locked for a week, and banished from ever holding a title in the future, so I don't see  how you can claim that I am proposing that the individuals be punished as a substitute for punishing the realm, when I made it quite clear that it was only the realm I wanted targetted by the wrath of the Zuma. Maybe not even fully destroyed, but at least hurt as much as the Long Winter hurt us.

Both of you are making the mistake of assuming that I play in Aurvandil.

I've already stated my case on this issue, your attacks don't reveal any flaws in my reasoning nor bring up anything I might have overlooked, so I will simply refer you to my previous post. However, because I know that you either won't look or bother to understand it, I will emphasize a single point which I will state here. Chenier: you cannot punish a realm with any effect, because a realm is not sentient. It cannot understand that it's being punished, nor can it fathom why.

[Bjarnson]

Discussing the Butterfly effect till no end will bring us so much closer to put this behind us and try to play the game again, I am sure the right persons will do the right actions.

And on the subject on how Aurvandil treats the disapperance of Mendicant IN CHARACTER, I understand, I would do the same, because IC he has been a paramount figure in Aurvandil history. And Grimrog, my char, had respect for the character.

OUT OF CHARACTER I despise that he was a cheater and IF I had known, I would never brought Asylon closer to him(he has basicly been the only contact I had with Aurvandilians)

[BarticaBoat]

Both of you are making the mistake of assuming that I play in Aurvandil.

I've already stated my case on this issue, your attacks don't reveal any flaws in my reasoning nor bring up anything I might have overlooked, so I will simply refer you to my previous post. However, because I know that you either won't look or bother to understand it, I will emphasize a single point which I will state here. Chenier: you cannot punish a realm with any effect, because a realm is not sentient. It cannot understand that it's being punished, nor can it fathom why.

if you had read my post you would understand why your position is wrong. you've said that aurvandilian nobles have not benefited; they have. With Mendicant and his drones gone, all those positions are now open to actual players. By cowering under a cheater for years, you now reap his rewards. you are aurvandil. as long as you remain in aurvandil, you reap its rewards. you now gain control of the biggest military dwilight has ever seen, and you do so in your own personal sandbox. quit pretending nobles in aurvandil haven't gained anything. if i'm not mistaken, all the gold from the multi accounts will be redistributed this tax?

[Indirik]

if i'm not mistaken, all the gold from the multi accounts will be redistributed this tax?

None of the locked accounts have autopaused yet. That takes 14 days. Once that happens the bonds from those characters will be sent to the realm, and, I am fairly sure,  be delivered to the ruler.

[Kwanstein]

if you had read my post you would understand why your position is wrong. you've said that aurvandilian nobles have not benefited; they have. With Mendicant and his drones gone, all those positions are now open to actual players. By cowering under a cheater for years, you now reap his rewards. you are aurvandil. as long as you remain in aurvandil, you reap its rewards. you now gain control of the biggest military dwilight has ever seen, and you do so in your own personal sandbox. quit pretending nobles in aurvandil haven't gained anything. if i'm not mistaken, all the gold from the multi accounts will be redistributed this tax?

If those positions which Mendicant left behind weren't to go to the nobles of Aurvandil, whom would they go to? Nobles of other realms, of course. In the case that Aurvandil couldn't keep those regions, they would simply be redistributed and some other hapless saps would end up benefiting from them. So, you see, one way or another someone is going to end up benefiting from Mendicant's cheating. That is why your position makes no sense. Also, I said this in the very post that you're quoting: I am not in Aurvandil, stop assuming that I'm only interested in furthering my own gain.

[Penchant]

Once more, everyone quit your bitching and move on with the game. Chenier, it doesn't matter how much you whine, there isn't going to be a Zuma Invasion of Aurvandil because of this.

[BarticaBoat]

None of the locked accounts have autopaused yet. That takes 14 days. Once that happens the bonds from those characters will be sent to the realm, and, I am fairly sure,  be delivered to the ruler.

boom, eternal treasury for everyone

"but aurvandilians haven't benefited!"

If those positions which Mendicant left behind weren't to go to the nobles of Aurvandil, whom would they go to? Nobles of other realms, of course. In the case that Aurvandil couldn't keep those regions, they would simply be redistributed and some other hapless saps would end up benefiting from them. So, you see, one way or another someone is going to end up benefiting from Mendicant's cheating. That is why your position makes no sense. Also, I said this in the very post that you're quoting: I am not in Aurvandil, stop assuming that I'm only interested in furthering my own gain.

You're sounding pretty upset, you should probably calm down.
As I said, the Eternal treasury is going to be distributed to the nobles of Aurvandil. Combined with some very scary RCs they have the nobles of Aurvandil are sitting in their own personal sandbox. How would Aurvandilian positions go to nobles from other realms...? Todd, Knight of D'Hara, High Sovereign of Aurvandil? Or is someone who sat around in Aurvandil now going to gain control of the mightiest power in Dwilight?

By dismantling Aurvandil, no one gains from it. That's what you don't understand. By allowing Aurvandil to remain, the Poor Victims of Mendicant's Tyranny™ get to pick up the pieces they haven't earned and play with them.

[Chenier]

...surprise?
Then I think we can say that Aurvandil gets no credit for destroying Barca (come on, we're talking about Barca here, how tough was that?) or Terran (they could have had peace any time they wanted.)
If it ever happens, you'll find out. After all, he's let realms keep tens of thousands of gold that they have stumbled upon, completely by accident, through various bugs.

Surprise for you, maybe, 'cause they all happened before Aurvandil seceded. Nice try though, to retort to "what did Astrum and Morek do since Aurvandil was founded" by naming almost only things wich happened before Aurvandil was founded.

Aurvandil started the war, and thus it gets credit. Barca, Terran, and D'Hara didn't throw themselves at Aurvandil begging for a war, quite the opposite actually, unlike Caerwyn and Thulsoma who basically begged to be destroyed. As for the daimons, when Sint's general assigned daimon militia units to player characters, I don't recall it lasting very long. Gold can only do so much, you still need nobles who have limited recruitment capacities and whose's CS per man worsens by unit size. Even "tens of thousands of gold" is in no way comparable to what Aurvandil inherits. D'Hara funded realms with tens of thousands of gold in the past, and the results never were all that spectacular.

Both of you are making the mistake of assuming that I play in Aurvandil.

I've already stated my case on this issue, your attacks don't reveal any flaws in my reasoning nor bring up anything I might have overlooked, so I will simply refer you to my previous post. However, because I know that you either won't look or bother to understand it, I will emphasize a single point which I will state here. Chenier: you cannot punish a realm with any effect, because a realm is not sentient. It cannot understand that it's being punished, nor can it fathom why.

That you play in Aurvandil or not is meaningless, you speak in their favor. As for your reasoning, it assumes that justice requires that the entity being punished understands it. Both this claim and the claim that a realm, as a collective entity, cannot understand punishment are highly questionnable. If a fire is burning a neighborhood because of arson, and you have water to put it out, do you ask yourself "well, if the fire isn't sentient, then we can't get justice by putting it out". You just put out the damn fire. As for a realm's "sentience", it really is of no importance whatsoever. If your neighbor steals a car and gives it to you, then he gets arrested for it, do you think you are in any way entitled to keeping the car?

Discussing the Butterfly effect till no end will bring us so much closer to put this behind us and try to play the game again, I am sure the right persons will do the right actions.

Which is why I don't speak of restitution. Damage that would not have occured is impossible to calculate. However, gains facilitated, if not enabled by cheating, are much easier to evaluate.

If those positions which Mendicant left behind weren't to go to the nobles of Aurvandil, whom would they go to? Nobles of other realms, of course. In the case that Aurvandil couldn't keep those regions, they would simply be redistributed and some other hapless saps would end up benefiting from them. So, you see, one way or another someone is going to end up benefiting from Mendicant's cheating. That is why your position makes no sense. Also, I said this in the very post that you're quoting: I am not in Aurvandil, stop assuming that I'm only interested in furthering my own gain.

This is stupid. If the legitimate players of Aurvandil can't hold onto any given regions, then, would there not have been cheating, other realms would have taken them long ago. Taking a few regions now would nowhere near compensate for the strife created.

Once more, everyone quit your bitching and move on with the game. Chenier, it doesn't matter how much you whine, there isn't going to be a Zuma Invasion of Aurvandil because of this.

Yes, let's all just go back to playing PawnMaster, because who cares for politics, cheaters will do all of it for us anyways. Why convince anyone of anything when you can just multi your way to victory. Cheating pays, after all.