Allison's Eulogies

[Perth]

I honestly don't know how people even forget to use a title anymore. Coming up on my fifth anniversary of joining this game, writing "Lord" or "Duke" or "King" or "Lady" or "Sir" in front of the person's name at the beginning of the letter is basically just reflex now.

Also, there are a number of people who address Kale very informally, especially in private. "My friend" is a common address from those who are, well, Kale's friend. That's fine by him.

If the ruler of a foreign realm writes Kale a letter in their first correspondence and says "hey kale" yeah, he is going to be put off by it. It's just disrespectful. It's the BM equivalent of not shaking his hand when you meet him.

[Scarlett]

Look, I am sorry for singling out Allison because Allison is just a convenient example. She made it easy because she's the only person to openly admit to being fine about what a lot of other people are tacitly fine with. And Geronus is right, when it comes to this stuff I am pretty close to an endangered species these days. But none of this comes from my own personal desire to have the game be a certain way, though obviously I have one.  it comes from how the game once was, and more importantly, how everybody said they wanted it to be for Dwilight. I'm excluding here my beefs with SMA and things like the Zuma because they're not relevant to this point.

Titles are also a good example because they're the very first thing on the 'do' list on the Dwilight wiki page. Why is that? Rewind to 2006.

Similar discussions were had then, some around the FEI, which had lost its designation as the 'RP Island' well before even then. And when I say we had a lot of RPers, I don't mean that the only thing we're missing now is people who would log in and write paragraphs of text about whatever they did that day (though some did). These were people who could take a black screen with white text on it and convey a real feeling of place and time. It wasn't one thing they did; it was a thousand little things, and collectively it made BM special for a lot of people, most of whom clearly aren't around anymore to talk about it.

One key factor was that you weren't guaranteed a lordship like you are today. You could spend 6, 8, 10 months in a realm and be active and eventually be made lord. Duke could take quite a lot longer. This has more to do with arithmetic than player attitudes: when you had to work hard to get a title, you instinctively valued it more and you paid attention to what the people who had titles said and did. When the player count dropped and it became significantly easier to get not just a lordship but even a duchy or a kingdom, of course the value of a title went down: the cost of acquiring one had gone down. You would never have had a character like Allison drift between a half-dozen realms and be able to get ahead without making an investment in a particular realm's hierarchy -- that is to say, without hobnobbing around the people who had titles and 'playing the game.' This didn't take a whole lot of extra effort, particularly when you already had someone who (as has been pointed out) invested a lot of time in plots and micromanaging.

You also had more intra-realm factions, because realms with 60-70 people had internal politics to spice things up. The last potential war and the current one on the FEI were both heavily influenced OOCly by rulers needing something to do for their players (not necessarily a bad thing) -- and in some cases outright OOC ruler channel chat about what we can do to make things less boring. I never saw this in '06 and '07 because there were so many more moving parts in each realm that it was pretty unlikely for all of them to stop at the same time and need an external push.

I also remember Tom having a pretty good reason for having a single d-list and not a whole discussion forum. I don't remember exactly what he said but somebody explained to me (hearsay, sorry if this isn't accurate) that one of the reasons was because he knew it'd turn into an OOC snipe-fest between players over whatever their characters were fighting about. Perfectly natural for a conflict-based game but not productive, and one of the things that dampened that for me was when characters could really pull off a 'medieval feel,' whether through RP or just simple letter-writing. It was like a built-in reminder of 'hey, this is just my character, Sir Dingley Dang, and I am just the actor.'   It didn't always work and you still had sniping, but it was a nice hedge and it attracted people to the game. I'd run into about a dozen of them on the Internet over the years (though not as a clan or anything) and they were not people who would come onto the d-list and fight it out.  If the game or people on the game made their experience less fun, they'd just leave. At the time, it was mostly game mechanics and bugs - and a lot of those are a hundred times better today. But the atmosphere of the game has changed because of title arithmetic.

When Dwilight first started, stuff like 'people will use titles' didn't even get discussion because it was just assumed as a base-line. The notion that a character with major influence would or could become a character of continent-wide influence who didn't care about this stuff (and this was not just one occasion in Terran, either) would have been foreign to everybody. This is reflected in the wiki, in the Dwilight welcome page, and (I think) even on the 'report an SMA violation' page. I didn't have a lot to do with any of those things besides the RP Primer, so if I have unreasonable expectations, it's because that's what a lot of the game had six years ago.

Sorry I'm not showing appropriate reverence to an internet noble. Just seems strange to me that you'd eulogize one example whose chief attribute was a lot of time and dedication to play the game but not the dozens who made BM a place that was something beyond just moving internet soldiers around a game board.

[Perth]

That was an amazing post.

[Kwanstein]

The post is a load of vague and positive connotations of an idealised past. It contains no argument to justify the author's view on a logical basis. I suspect that it was subconsciously intended to buy sentimental support so that the author might vindicate, in his own mind, the decision of his to terminate his account several weeks ago.

[BarticaBoat]

The post is a load of vague and positive connotations of an idealised past. It contains no argument to justify the author's view on a logical basis. I suspect that it was subconsciously intended to buy sentimental support so that the author might vindicate, in his own mind, the decision of his to terminate his account several weeks ago.

Are you 12 or something? Next thing you know you're going to link me to the list of logical fallacies on wikipedia.

He is describing the game as it was. Nowadays, people go "hurr durr battlemaster i want to battle" and all they want to do is play a far too intense game of risk. In the past the game was about playing medieval nobles, not about maximum efficiency and "oo that sounds like fun let's do it!"

Look what's happening with might and fealty, it's just a giant more complex version of risk. I've hardly interacted with the many many nobles around me. The one family who asked me to swear fealty didn't even offer me any incentive beyond "then we can form a realm".

[Scarlett]

It contains no argument to justify the author's view on a logical basis.

My post can be reduced to 'BM used to have lots and lots of players and that made it a better place. Now it has a whole lot less. Here is one reason why.'

BM is a game based on conflict. There is no 'idealized past,' the players were still trying to get the better of one another. The difference is that, now, that's all most players are trying to do.

Back then there were more that made the attempt to add atmosphere to the game outside of 'give everyone something to do.'

that the author might vindicate, in his own mind, the decision of his to terminate his account several weeks ago.

I am sorry that your world is that small.

We all get attached to our characters, but my attachment is not so personal that I feel things like remorse or regret about leaving a continent for an internet game. I don't miss Dwilight and I don't get real life personal validation out of playing BM. It's a fun escape and in many respects it's a well-done game with a lot of really great players.

Like every other Internet social activity, it also has a vocal minority that needs personal validation and which gets it, however temporarily, from 'winning' BM. In small amounts this is natural and unavoidable because we're humans with messy emotions. When it becomes a prevailing attitude on the game, it costs me nothing to come by and tell you that it wasn't always like that.

There is no victory for me here. I'm already on the way out for reasons that have nothing to do with the state of the game and just hoping I can stick it out long enough to give some FEI players a good fight.

The players in 2006 and 2007 weren't better than the players now. Just having there be more of them automatically made everyone better, because more people means more factions and more politics and that rewards good player attitudes and clever writing a little more than it rewards good gameplay.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Are you 12 or something? Next thing you know you're going to link me to the list of logical fallacies on wikipedia.

He is describing the game as it was. Nowadays, people go "hurr durr battlemaster i want to battle" and all they want to do is play a far too intense game of risk. In the past the game was about playing medieval nobles, not about maximum efficiency and "oo that sounds like fun let's do it!"

Look what's happening with might and fealty, it's just a giant more complex version of risk. I've hardly interacted with the many many nobles around me. The one family who asked me to swear fealty didn't even offer me any incentive beyond "then we can form a realm".

I've been around for a while too. I can tell you that if their isn't as much interaction with nobles, it's because of a lack of players, rather than not being willing to rp.

[Kwanstein]

Are you 12 or something? Next thing you know you're going to link me to the list of logical fallacies on wikipedia.

He is describing the game as it was. Nowadays, people go "hurr durr battlemaster i want to battle" and all they want to do is play a far too intense game of risk. In the past the game was about playing medieval nobles, not about maximum efficiency and "oo that sounds like fun let's do it!"

Look what's happening with might and fealty, it's just a giant more complex version of risk. I've hardly interacted with the many many nobles around me. The one family who asked me to swear fealty didn't even offer me any incentive beyond "then we can form a realm".

The game as a whole has never been very medieval. Maybe there were groups here and there who made serious attempts at it. Maybe Dwilight, when it was fresh and new, was able to coerce an exemplary effort out of people with it's novelty. But those are exceptions. When I started playing in 2006, the general of my realm was role playing "marathons," in both a figurative and literal sense, across enemy lands. I also recall parodies such as the Great Doctator which were well received by the player base.

As far as your notion that this game is nowadays full of power gamers, it is also false. As someone who's interested in playing this game competently myself, I am often horrified by the poor play of my peers. People not following orders, generals not issuing them. Tax rates being set arbitrarily low. There are many other such examples.

The lack of players being responsible for, well, a bunch of things goes without saying.

[Anaris]

Good grief, people; can you not see that, to some extent, you're both right?

BattleMaster has always had a blend of two cultures: those who want to roleplay medieval nobles, and those who just want a Risk-type game.

Which you experience more of is heavily influenced by where you played, and when.

When I started playing, most of the game had somewhat more of a strategy-type feel to it than it does now. I would say that around 2008-9 or so is when the feeling of "medievalness" probably peaked, on average—along with, as has been noted, the size of the playerbase.

There are, however, places in BattleMaster now that are at least as roleplayed and medieval as any were then.

And there are places now that are more focused on hyper-efficiency and playing a war strategy game than they were then.

BattleMaster is not, and has never been, just one thing. That's part of what makes it so good.

[Scarlett]

That's part of what makes it so good.

But the decline in one group happens to match the decline in the overall player base. Obviously that's just a correlation and I can't prove causation, and certainly not from the dozen or so people I kept in touch with out of game. But I've heard the same complaint from others.

You as the developers need to decide who you are going to cater to, because thus far you've been catering to the people most vocal on the forum. That's fine but from a numbers standpoint, it ain't working. Have a strategy, aim it at a group of people you most want to attract, and double down on it.

My argument is that offering a risk-type strategy game is fine and it's a good game but it's not that special. It doesn't turn heads. You had something that did but you didn't capitalize on it.

It's the easiest thing in the world to ask the people already playing your game what they want and to give them more of it. Much harder to ask what people who aren't playing your game want, particularly if it's at odds with the people you've got.

I am often horrified by the poor play of my peers. People not following orders, generals not issuing them.

as your notion that this game is nowadays full of power gamers, it is also false

I think you just disproved your own point. Those things aren't horrifying.

it's because of a lack of players, rather than not being willing to rp.

When I say 'RPers' I don't mean 'people who write roleplays' but 'people who invest in the theme of the game beyond a strategy board game.'  People who put in a few little touches here and there that make the same business of regions and estates and takeovers something more than the sum of their parts. That's what makes a realm interesting and what keeps people from leaving.

[Kwanstein]

But the decline in one group happens to match the decline in the overall player base. Obviously that's just a correlation and I can't prove causation, and certainly not from the dozen or so people I kept in touch with out of game. But I've heard the same complaint from others.

You as the developers need to decide who you are going to cater to, because thus far you've been catering to the people most vocal on the forum. That's fine but from a numbers standpoint, it ain't working. Have a strategy, aim it at a group of people you most want to attract, and double down on it.

My argument is that offering a risk-type strategy game is fine and it's a good game but it's not that special. It doesn't turn heads. You had something that did but you didn't capitalize on it.

It's the easiest thing in the world to ask the people already playing your game what they want and to give them more of it. Much harder to ask what people who aren't playing your game want, particularly if it's at odds with the people you've got.

I think you just disproved your own point. Those things aren't horrifying.

When I say 'RPers' I don't mean 'people who write roleplays' but 'people who invest in the theme of the game beyond a strategy board game.'  People who put in a few little touches here and there that make the same business of regions and estates and takeovers something more than the sum of their parts. That's what makes a realm interesting and what keeps people from leaving.

All games eventually decline in players. Blame repetition, and a loss of novelty. After a few years of playing a person is liable to grow bored with BM and move on. Because this is a niche game to begin with, you can expect it to quickly exhaust it's pool of potential players. The fact that BM lasted for ten years is extraordinary and can be attributed to the gradual, levelled acquisition of players (as opposed to the front loaded sales that commercial games tend towards).

Your complaint about the devs catering to power gamers on the forums is insane. The developer support mostly amounts to bug fixes. On occasion when a new feature is released, it amounts to something like sea travel or automated trading. What, exactly, is the problem with that?

No, I'm sorry, but what you say is unconvincing. You attempt to paint this game as a nightmare mixture of risk and anti-medievalists, relying on the appeal that saying such things amongst dedicated role players is guaranteed to bring. It's nothing but hollow rhetoric. I maintain my Freudian theory that you are subliminally driven to these arguments as a means of self-affirmation.

[Norrel]

It's nothing but hollow rhetoric. I maintain my Freudian theory that you are subliminally driven to these arguments as a means of self-affirmation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

[BarticaBoat]

^ +1 internets to you

[Scarlett]

Blah blah blah Freud blah

Son, I !@#$ better rhetoric than this self-important sophomoric blizz-blazz.

[Scarlett]

other comments

Compared to '06/'07, the devs have actually been catering to people like me in a lot of ways. The gameyness of a lot of things is substantially less than it was. Not everything but most of the people I know who left the game did so calling it 'peasantMaster' and so on, and that aspect is a whole lot better.

But that's programming. I'm talking about thematic catering. Right now it's out of sync: it says 'serious medieval atmosphere' but ain't. So either change what it says to whatever you think it really is, or change what it is.

Don't do it the way I'd want you to do it. I won't be here anyway. Just make a conscious decision about the kind of people you want and appeal to those people. Sure these things are cyclical but the only way I'm at all unique among the group of people I'm talking about is that I came back to check things out again and most of them won't.