On SA's political coalition: Pros, Cons, and Potential Action.

[pcw27]

That would indeed be interesting! However, that number is including nobles of allied realms, and SA has taken too long to build what it has to let one of their main countries be destabilized by a small incident like this.

I dunno, they didn't intervene on Iashalur and they had plenty of excuses. In Iashalur's case there wasn't really any potential for fallout afterwards but in Astrum any one of their duchies might splinter off.

Besides maybe Niselur's dudes could turn on Leopold. Not like they'd been friends for long.

[Chenier]

Anyone who finds his realm dull has only himself to blame for staying there. Join a more dynamic realm, and help it become stronger than the parent stagnant realm.

There is plenty of war on Dwilight, you just have to leave the peaceful sectors and head to them.

God, shut up. Can you avoid turning any thread into an extension of your own IC propaganda?

Screw you. He wants war. Which realms are fighting wars, and likely to keep on fighting for a while? D'Hara and Fissoa. Asylon's at war with a few people, but that war is dying out, and shows no signs of any meaningful continuation. I couldn't give a rat's ass whether he joins D'Hara or not.

[Telamon]

Attributing any stagnation to Mathurin is simply misguided. He's not standing in the way of the kind of conflict being described here. Blame your ruler first and foremost.

I'm not talking about the founder or a specific ruler, the problem is this strong peace between 5 huge realms and the social/political dynamic that is diminishing conflict on the island.
The solution that i would suggest would be for the players and leadership to encourage more authentic "medieval behavior" so the nations among the faith of SA can squabble and fight. However, the problem is that the religion has manifested itself into a nearly unshakeable mass political alliance that is killing the fun in the game. I want people to make plans to do something about it! Let's make things interesting!

[Telamon]

I'm not talking about the founder or a specific ruler, the problem is this strong peace between 5 huge realms and the social/political dynamic that is diminishing conflict on the island.
The solution that i would suggest would be for the players and leadership to encourage more authentic "medieval behavior" so the nations among the faith of SA can squabble and fight. However, the problem is that the religion has manifested itself into a nearly unshakeable mass political alliance that is killing the fun in the game. I want people to make plans to do something about it! Let's make things interesting!

Perhaps i will, perhaps not.

I'm not just talking about myself. I want the members of SA who feel the same way, or don't, to voice their opinions.

[Chenier]

I'm not talking about the founder or a specific ruler, the problem is this strong peace between 5 huge realms and the social/political dynamic that is diminishing conflict on the island.
The solution that i would suggest would be for the players and leadership to encourage more authentic "medieval behavior" so the nations among the faith of SA can squabble and fight. However, the problem is that the religion has manifested itself into a nearly unshakeable mass political alliance that is killing the fun in the game. I want people to make plans to do something about it! Let's make things interesting!

That's a perception problem. Morek and Libero don't have solid relations. Morek just recently founded Swordfell, but the church doesn't have solid relations with it. A score of realms have adopted the faith without being theocracies or having their diplomacy binded by the church.

As you said, these realms can't fight on the other side of the continent. Which also means that if they stagnate, they can't also stagnate the rest of the continent with them, and there remains plenty of other sectors to head towards. The South has been in constant war since quite a while, now...

[Telamon]

As you said, these realms can't fight on the other side of the continent. Which also means that if they stagnate, they can't also stagnate the rest of the continent with them, and there remains plenty of other sectors to head towards. The South has been in constant war since quite a while, now...

You're right, but i was not talking about the south. I'm talking about the stagnating SA and the north. I'm calling active discussion about the stagnation so the members of these huge realms might talk about it, and hopefully, change things.
Again, i'm not talking about where i personally might go, i'm talking about members who are invested in where they are. Yes, i'm probably going to leave sometime soon, but people should care to make the game more fun where they are anyway.

[Daimall]

Besides maybe Niselur's dudes could turn on Leopold. Not like they'd been friends for long.

Well Leopold had imported several nobles down from the south up to the north, so that was interesting to say the least. The general activity and messaging (especially when the newcomers arriving and political reshuffling) made things lively so as long as Leopold can keep things talking within the realm he should be relatively secure in the internal front.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I'm not talking about the founder or a specific ruler, the problem is this strong peace between 5 huge realms and the social/political dynamic that is diminishing conflict on the island.
The solution that i would suggest would be for the players and leadership to encourage more authentic "medieval behavior" so the nations among the faith of SA can squabble and fight. However, the problem is that the religion has manifested itself into a nearly unshakeable mass political alliance that is killing the fun in the game. I want people to make plans to do something about it! Let's make things interesting!

Dude, I have been saying the same for quite some time now. No one in SA will listen. Nothing will change. Basically they want the entire map to be subservient to them or a colony of SA and only then will they fight amongst themselves (Like that will magically happen this decade) .  For the last few years that Dwilight has existed SA has only been concerned with one thing, maintaining a safe status quo / converting new realms and killing off any potential conflict that is between the theocracies. Cookie cutter continents and cultures...

[Indirik]

Basically they want the entire map to be subservient to them or a colony of SA

Well duh... The nobles in SA want everyone to worship the Stars. It's not like it's a big secret.

[Naidraug]

One thing that came to mind at the moment...it is just a thought that I think we can also debate:

with the current situation, can we consider SA to be a clan, or at least have a clan-like behavior? That without realising the players that command SA ended up creating a "religious clan"?

For instance, if you have this big block of allies in the north, that won't fight each other because of SA, that is not a really big problem but if you add other things like:

-If a realm(let´s say realm T) is declared enemy of the church or even if he declares war against one, he will be going to war against at least 4 other realms (5 or more if you count the SA based republics)

-So what can the realm do? I see two options: A-Find someone else to go to war or B-Join SA and be a part of the power block

Option A is harder if you are a realm that is next to one of the theocracies and there is no other potential enemy next to you.

So, the choice you have is to join the power block and have a far away on the other side of the continent enemy, that you will never attack.

Fun is ruined for the people of realm T. And no, moving to a different realm is not an option, as it was said, people tend to love their realm and want to stay in it.

Other thing is: Let´s say a noble wants to become ruler of Astrum. But he is tired of the church, and leave it or is expelled.

Now Astrum as a Theocracy won't allow him to grow as a noble, and the fun for him will be ruined.

Again, leaving the realm is not an option, as the player loves the realm he is in. What he does not like is the Church.

So, because of this, he has to remain inside SA to be able to grow and prosper inside a realm he loves.

With time he can(will) lose his interest on Dwilight and can even leave the game.

So considering that this situations, and the problems that this might bring, can that SA and the realms, structured themselves in a way a clan would?

A clan usually don't let anyone play, and grow inside a realm. SA realms let you do that, but you have to be part of SA.

The nobles of SA want everyone to worship the Stars, but at what point this becomes abusive and what is the limit of this? Where can we say: "No, wait, you are all going to far with the religion thing?"

Can we say that this ends up being a clan-like behavior? If yes, what can we do to prevent it, fix it or
I know people want and prefer to deal with things IC, but some times during a game, you have to take a step back, check the rules, and adapt them if necessary. This is after all a game, that is supposed to be fun for everyone.

(I also would like to make clear that I am no accusing anyone of being clan or anything, but these questions came to my mind and I think it would be good to this discussion to talk about this)

[Zakilevo]

If I remember it right having a clan is perfectly fine. So it is pointless to try and categorize the whole SA as a 'religious clan'. Also, if you put it that way, any group of theocracies will be considered as a clan. You can't control 145 people to do what you wish them to do. The only solution at this moment is time and with time people will eventually get bored of SA and move on to another realm. SA theocracies will eventually become hallow shells and collapse on their own.

[Naidraug]

If I remember it right having a clan is perfectly fine. So it is pointless to try and categorize the whole SA as a 'religious clan'. Also, if you put it that way, any group of theocracies will be considered as a clan. You can't control 145 people to do what you wish them to do. The only solution at this moment is time and with time people will eventually get bored of SA and move on to another realm. SA theocracies will eventually become hallow shells and collapse on their own.

As I recall having an clan is not fine when you prevent other from having fun and enjoying the game, and as I said, why should someone leave the realm he love playing, with the nobles he like because of a religion. Sometimes simply moving to another realm is not an option, specially when the only realm options are realms your character considered enemies for other reasons aside from religion.

[Zakilevo]

As I recall having an clan is not fine when you prevent other from having fun and enjoying the game, and as I said, why should someone leave the realm he love playing, with the nobles he like because of a religion. Sometimes simply moving to another realm is not an option, specially when the only realm options are realms your character considered enemies for other reasons aside from religion.

The problem is the person you are mentioning is in a THEOCRACY meaning the whole political focus of the realm is its state religion. If he or she did not expect the religion would get in his or her way of success, the person should have joined a non-theocracy. Also, SA isn't really a problem for a personal success.

Let me tell you my personal story. My character Kihalin has been in Astrum for over 3.5 years and although he is a member of the church, he has never cared much about it. He was once questioned by one of the luminaries but he made it clear that he did not care about the church and only cared about Astrum. He became a duke eventually until I paused him to play in Luria. The point of the story is as long as you are in the church, they don't care if you are being faithful or not as long as you stay loyal to your realm. Theocracies don't stop their nobles from climbing up in the hierarchical chain as long as you are loyal.

[Gustav Kuriga]

As I recall having an clan is not fine when you prevent other from having fun and enjoying the game, and as I said, why should someone leave the realm he love playing, with the nobles he like because of a religion. Sometimes simply moving to another realm is not an option, specially when the only realm options are realms your character considered enemies for other reasons aside from religion.

What's stopping you from moving to another continent?

And besides that, the issue regarding clans is if they actively exclude others, not if others exclude themselves by choice. Sanguis Astroism is open to anyone from another religion who wishes to convert, so even if you were to label it a clan, it is not one that would break the rule.

[Ironsides]

I called this years ago and have been actively (at times) trying to encourage and build alternatives.

For example:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4129.0.html

and

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Ashrak_Imperialist

and another example that I will not share, and a fourth example that I haven't released yet and probably wont.

Basically, the end result is that they choose to keep it as it is and that's that. If you do not like it, find an alternative. If you can't, build one. I did! That's part of the beauty of BM. If you're strong willed enough you can do anything, even go against the grain!