Manual Government Change - Terran

[Chenier]

So what about a manual change to drop Terran into anarchy? Have everyone lose their government position while you are at it, and put a GM event report of the NPCs rising up against the change.

That way, nobody gets a free pass, the change will be messy, but it will be able to let the game and RP harmonize itself to each other.

[egamma]

So what about a manual change to drop Terran into anarchy? Have everyone lose their government position while you are at it, and put a GM event report of the NPCs rising up against the change.

That way, nobody gets a free pass, the change will be messy, but it will be able to let the game and RP harmonize itself to each other.

Can't they just step down from their positions, OR change the election method to elected-monthly, and then get what they want?

[Indirik]

 That part of the process is both the easiest, and the trickiest. All you have to do is fail a ruler election, and you're there. But this process also allows someone in the realm a chance to sabotage the process, if they desire, and get elected.

[Lefanis]

That part of the process is both the easiest, and the trickiest. All you have to do is fail a ruler election, and you're there. But this process also allows someone in the realm a chance to sabotage the process, if they desire, and get elected.

Is it still possible to make it dukes vote only, after the code change? Or only dukes eligible for the post? That might simplify matters.

[Indirik]

Yes, that is still possible.

[Vellos]

The major concern is just represented by the NPCs. Don't eat the menu and don't drive on the map, please.

What these NPCs represent is that a government system is more than the label on the palace entrance. Changing a country from communism to capitalism is messy. From monarchy to democracy, usually bloody. From democracy to dictatorship, often twice as bloody. It's not something that happens in the palace, or even in the capital. It involves not just the government and the nobles, but everyone working for the government, from the ministers down to the lowest clerk.

A government system is a lot more stable than any particular government. A monarchy easily survives a hundred kings, and a democracy can go through a civil war with nobody questioning the democratic principles per se.

That is what we simulate in the game by simply not having a "change your government system here" button. The government in BM is only reformed after breaking down entirely. Throughout real-world history, that has been the normal case, with the peaceful changes like east germany being the exceptions.

I won't rule out exceptions entirely. But they need to be exceptional and that's why I asked this to be brought to the attention of someone who actually knows what's going on in-game, because I haven't played BM at all for a few months now.

I agree.

But let's take stock here. Every single non-Astroist left the realm. Astroists who left have returned. New Astroists have arrived. The ruler is an Astroist priest. The Triunists seceded to form two Triunist realms. Terran has been legally a Triunist/Astroist realm for years. With all the Triunists seceded, it's logical to say we're Astroist (which we've done).

We haven't just changed a label. We've gotten rid of all the republicans and Triunists. We've dropped 90% of the realm. We've brought in new people. We've even had street-fighting between various factions in Terran during Quintus' last days.

The government system of Terran has failed. Everyone in game knows it. It's been renounced by literally everyone who has the ability to do so. I really don't see why we should have to RP a theocracy, as Indirik says, for years to get a change that has clearly already happened now.

See, here's the thing. You're right: government change involves more than the palace. Usually. But Terran does not exist beyond the palace. We're one city (well, just conquered a townsland, but it'll probably starve itself rogue. Literally every single position is held by one man (Hireshmont). Many of the city officials have already been purged due to Quintus' treachery. Others would have fled with the Saffalorons and the Phantarians. We've had bloodshed and messiness: it just didn't have the game label "rebellion."

[Stabbity]

You obviously didn't get rid of all the republicans, because the every day government worker is still a republican, working for a republic. All the guys who still make everything happen, who run the warehouse, who run the bank, who deliver your mail, etc etc are still there. Terran's government may have failed to do anything but maintain a city state, but it hasn't collapsed.

[Perth]

I agree.

But let's take stock here. Every single non-Astroist left the realm. Astroists who left have returned. New Astroists have arrived. The ruler is an Astroist priest. The Triunists seceded to form two Triunist realms. Terran has been legally a Triunist/Astroist realm for years. With all the Triunists seceded, it's logical to say we're Astroist (which we've done).

We haven't just changed a label. We've gotten rid of all the republicans and Triunists. We've dropped 90% of the realm. We've brought in new people. We've even had street-fighting between various factions in Terran during Quintus' last days.

The government system of Terran has failed. Everyone in game knows it. It's been renounced by literally everyone who has the ability to do so. I really don't see why we should have to RP a theocracy, as Indirik says, for years to get a change that has clearly already happened now.

See, here's the thing. You're right: government change involves more than the palace. Usually. But Terran does not exist beyond the palace. We're one city (well, just conquered a townsland, but it'll probably starve itself rogue. Literally every single position is held by one man (Hireshmont). Many of the city officials have already been purged due to Quintus' treachery. Others would have fled with the Saffalorons and the Phantarians. We've had bloodshed and messiness: it just didn't have the game label "rebellion."

Damn. We really need a good written history of the split of Terran, 'cause you made it sound really cool.

[Vellos]

You obviously didn't get rid of all the republicans, because the every day government worker is still a republican, working for a republic. All the guys who still make everything happen, who run the warehouse, who run the bank, who deliver your mail, etc etc are still there. Terran's government may have failed to do anything but maintain a city state, but it hasn't collapsed.

No, the republican officials are gone. They fled, along with many of the Chateau's people. There's no republic. No voting except where Hireshmont wants it, no republican titles, no republican laws, and oaths to the Bloodstars have been received by the lower-ranking officials.

They aren't republicans, and there isn't a republic. There's a game label (which, AFAIK, actually does absolutely nothing– republic and theocracy have the same game effects, don't they?) which is defunct because the realm is in fact, in every way, a theocracy.

You can't claim that just because the game has the label "theocracy" that we're wrong in RPing OUR NPCs as theocratic.

[Indirik]

There's a game label (which, AFAIK, actually does absolutely nothing– republic and theocracy have the same game effects, don't they?)

No.

[Kwanstein]

No, the republican officials are gone. They fled, along with many of the Chateau's people. There's no republic. No voting except where Hireshmont wants it, no republican titles, no republican laws, and oaths to the Bloodstars have been received by the lower-ranking officials.

They aren't republicans, and there isn't a republic. There's a game label (which, AFAIK, actually does absolutely nothing– republic and theocracy have the same game effects, don't they?) which is defunct because the realm is in fact, in every way, a theocracy.

You can't claim that just because the game has the label "theocracy" that we're wrong in RPing OUR NPCs as theocratic.

Game mechanics trump RP. RPing yourself winning a battle where none took place doesn't net you prestige and neither does RPing yourself transitioning to theocracy when no transition took place get you a free government change.

[Stabbity]

No, the republican officials are gone. They fled, along with many of the Chateau's people. There's no republic. No voting except where Hireshmont wants it, no republican titles, no republican laws, and oaths to the Bloodstars have been received by the lower-ranking officials.

They aren't republicans, and there isn't a republic. There's a game label (which, AFAIK, actually does absolutely nothing– republic and theocracy have the same game effects, don't they?) which is defunct because the realm is in fact, in every way, a theocracy.

You can't claim that just because the game has the label "theocracy" that we're wrong in RPing OUR NPCs as theocratic.

No a theocracy has more in common with a monarchy than a republic.

[Vellos]

No.

Truly? Out of curiosity, what game mechanics change does it make? I honestly wasn't aware of any.

Game mechanics trump RP. RPing yourself winning a battle where none took place doesn't net you prestige and neither does RPing yourself transitioning to theocracy when no transition took place get you a free government change.

Except a transition did take place. Check our titles. Check our official name. Check our government election system. Check our territory.  Check our stats color. I'm working on a new banner. Check our noble list.

There HAS been a government change; a total break.

[Stabbity]

Truly? Out of curiosity, what game mechanics change does it make? I honestly wasn't aware of any.

Except a transition did take place. Check our titles. Check our official name. Check our government election system. Check our territory.  Check our stats color. I'm working on a new banner. Check our noble list.

There HAS been a government change; a total break.

The only thing you haven't replaced is the beaucracy, which needs more than some fancy titles xolors and elections to change how it works.

[Kwanstein]

Except a transition did take place. Check our titles. Check our official name. Check our government election system. Check our territory.  Check our stats color. I'm working on a new banner. Check our noble list.

There HAS been a government change; a total break.

You lost the nobles and territory for unrelated reasons. Title changes can be made at whim. Same as banner changes, although you've yet to even change that. None of those things are indicative of a government change.

Ultimately, you are roleplaying a situation that isn't represented by game mechanics and so demanding that the game mechanics be thwarted to conform to your roleplaying because otherwise there exists dissonance between the game mechanics and your roleplaying. It would be impractical for game mechanics to be thwarted whenever a roleplayed circumstance contradicted them, so your demands are unreasonable. You must play by everyone else's rules and bring your roleplays into line with what you can accomplish mechanically, so that there exists no contradiction.