Enweil & Ally vs Riombara

[Chenier]

That was the Meridian Republic, not Riombara. There was never any cooperation between both Realms, and I can know. The Meridian Republic allied the Monsters, still the lesser evil then allying with the Daimons after sending the Monsters to Riombara as well! Do you really want to rehash through that discussion though? Because I think it will just be more effective to go through the archives for that old discussion, because that one then had the exact same arguments.

No, it wasn't. I was describing Riombara. Though I was referring to how you gave all of their nobles a home before they seceded, and then once more after their realm collapsed. Rio has truces with the monsters, not just MR, and they were in no way morally superior to Enweil's surrender.

Marec is the rightful Ruler of the IVF after the Nobles of IVF rose up against Guillaume and overthrew him, at least according to Riombara. IVF rose up and casted out the Traitor to Humanity and helped Riombara at the end of the Invasion, so Riombara made a promise to see it rebuilt. Riombara does not wish to dishonourable break that promise.

Guillaume was never "risen up against". What happened is that a bunch of bugs gave Marec a tonload of power he should never have gotten, then the daimons took away most of the realm's regions, which ended up giving Marec pretty much all of the vote (only lords could vote, representative), and he voted himself in power. Had those bugs never occured, Marec would never have ruled. Had the rest of the lords been kept in place, or had voting be available to all nobles, Marec would never have ruled. Guillaume remained in the realm until it was destroyed, and then remained in Enweil until Rio forced him to exile himself with the Jidington Armistice. He was never forced out by anyone from within.

[Telrunya]

It's not like Riombara knew about their intentions and decided to go out of their way to give them a home knowing what they were up to. That is just silly. Here is the explanation:

Riombara never affiliated with Invaders. The Meridian Republic did, and, prior to its secession, many of the nobles of that realm advocated for collaboration and tried to get Rio to collaborate. Riombara did not. That's why MR seceded. Because Rio refused to collaborate with the monsters.

And about the Nobles that seceded:

Most of the people who were behind the secession did not return to Riombara. Telrunya and D'Este were given amnesty because of their voluntary actions in returning their duchies, plus Telrunya stepped down. Celyn Haethorne was already gone. Hylor Hobbs was only permitted to return because he was deleting his character and wanted to do an RP about it. Vellos had already sacrificed himself at the Temple of Light. Lefanis was not permitted to return under any circumstances. Athins was gone. The only one I can think of whom we allowed to return was Nigel de la Fere, and Evander pushed to ban him. Thought about trying to get Yuri Ishimu banned too for taking Avengmil over to MR shortly after the original secession.

Guillaume was never "risen up against".

What happened was that Marec was Ruler of IVF and he turned against Guillaume when he learned of his Agreement with the Daimons. He then joined Riombara when the Daimons besieged IVF to continue the fight, where Guillaume then angrily left for Enweil. That IVF under Marec is what Riombara is recreating, because IVF distanced themselves from Guillaume in the end when they learned the truth, which was enough for Riombara to accept.

[Lorgan]

Uhm, yea, wasn't it Enweil that everyone ditched and gleefully watched as they were picked out by the daimons while everyone else was left alone?

I remember quite a bunch of Northern realms marching South in Enweil's defense too. Even Sint, that ream that you like chastising so much, came to Enweil's aid. It's not our fault that when Overlord played his little game and tricked the continent into thinking he'd attack Old Grehk - where we had some 40, maybe 50k gathered - you were the only ones who knew the truth but decided not to tell anyone. So yeah, probably thought you dodged a bullet there for a little while. 

[Indirik]

I guess this is one thread where no one can complain about the old "Riombara v. Enweil" argument being dredged up.

[Chenier]

It's not like Riombara knew about their intentions and decided to go out of their way to give them a home knowing what they were up to. That is just silly. Here is the explanation:

And about the Nobles that seceded:

What happened was that Marec was Ruler of IVF and he turned against Guillaume when he learned of his Agreement with the Daimons. He then joined Riombara when the Daimons besieged IVF to continue the fight, where Guillaume then angrily left for Enweil. That IVF under Marec is what Riombara is recreating, because IVF distanced themselves from Guillaume in the end when they learned the truth, which was enough for Riombara to accept.

Yes you did. Everyone knew that. The accord between KoA and the monsters was very public, everyone knew that they were going to form a colony to serve the monsters after ceding (losing) Eno to the monsters. They went to Riombara for the specific goal of founding Meridian Republic.

And IVF was flipped into Enweil first, killing the realm, and then Marec, as duke, flipped his duchy to Riombara.

[Fleugs]

Who cares who's wrong or right?

Riombara (and several others on BT) see Enweil as traitors to humankind. I think making your case against this is very difficult, and the only thing I wish to add is this: "Maybe it was just Enweil's turn to sacrifice itself and die with honour". Since the latter did not happen, however, revenge is warranted. You can argue left or right that Enweil did in fact not side with the daimons, but that's simply hallucinating. It's like arguing Riombara is not the richest realm on Beluaterra.

About IVF: who cares what the original purpose of IVF was or, in fact, whatever the hell IVF was? If Riombara recognized someone as the rightful heir to the land that used to be IVF, then Riombara will push such a claim in war - which we see happening right here. You can seriously whine on for weeks about how wrong Riombara's interpretation of IVF is, but that will not matter the slightest, because Riombara has an army to back up their argument and in the end that is how arguments in Battlemaster are settled.

It's very surprising by the way that Riombara is actually managing to win this war at the moment. Either its enemies are preparing some master move or they're really just weak. I believe in the latter and in addition I cannot wait to see more realm in the North get involved (on either side). Like, seriously, someone has to go remind Old Grehk that calling yourself an Empire whilst your realm is no Empire whatsoever is lame as hell and needs a good spanking.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Who cares who's wrong or right?

Riombara (and several others on BT) see Enweil as traitors to humankind. I think making your case against this is very difficult, and the only thing I wish to add is this: "Maybe it was just Enweil's turn to sacrifice itself and die with honour". Since the latter did not happen, however, revenge is warranted. You can argue left or right that Enweil did in fact not side with the daimons, but that's simply hallucinating. It's like arguing Riombara is not the richest realm on Beluaterra.

About IVF: who cares what the original purpose of IVF was or, in fact, whatever the hell IVF was? If Riombara recognized someone as the rightful heir to the land that used to be IVF, then Riombara will push such a claim in war - which we see happening right here. You can seriously whine on for weeks about how wrong Riombara's interpretation of IVF is, but that will not matter the slightest, because Riombara has an army to back up their argument and in the end that is how arguments in Battlemaster are settled.

It's very surprising by the way that Riombara is actually managing to win this war at the moment. Either its enemies are preparing some master move or they're really just weak. I believe in the latter and in addition I cannot wait to see more realm in the North get involved (on either side). Like, seriously, someone has to go remind Old Grehk that calling yourself an Empire whilst your realm is no Empire whatsoever is lame as hell and needs a good spanking.

How is it surprising that Riombara is winning? Enweil is probably the weakest realm on the continent barring Caelum.

[JeVondair]

has an army to back up their argument and in the end that is how arguments in Battlemaster are settled.

[jaune]

Enweilers are always hated. They tried to force everybody to become democrazies or republics. They attacked ArAgyr even thought invasion had started and everybody else was preparing to help each other and defend their lands. They murdered Julma Jaune...

So, Cosula family will always hate Enweil.

-Jaune

[Lorgan]

Hear Hear!

[Lefanis]

They went to Riombara for the specific goal of founding Meridian Republic.

No. Meridian wasnt planned as the KOA colony. They were easy recruits to MR, sure, but it wasn't made for them. It was Mordred that had the idea, and Khaludh who executed it from Rines (as he won the die roll when he and Nigel tied for the duchy of Rines).

[Geronus]

No. Meridian wasnt planned as the KOA colony. They were easy recruits to MR, sure, but it wasn't made for them. It was Mordred that had the idea, and Khaludh who executed it from Rines (as he won the die roll when he and Nigel tied for the duchy of Rines).

Agreed. Evander certainly never knew anything about any such plans, and would have opposed the entry of any KoA nobles if he had. Chenier obviously doesn't understand the extent of the bitterness the secession created; it's true that Riombara accepted MR's regions back after the invasion, which I'm sure seemed very convenient from the outside, but consider that (as enumerated in earlier posts) most of the original plotters who were behind the secession had passed on already or soon would as of the reunification. Evander saw to it that most of the rest got what they deserved, with the unfortunate exceptions of Nigel de la Fere and Yuri Ishimu. Note that no Lefanis family member was permitted back into Riombara until after Evander left the scene (alas, most Riombaran nobles today don't remember the events surrounding the secession, the fools). Not for lack of trying either; at least two Lefanises after Mordred tried to gain entry to Riombara while Evander was still there, and both were rebuffed.

[Chenier]

No. Meridian wasnt planned as the KOA colony. They were easy recruits to MR, sure, but it wasn't made for them. It was Mordred that had the idea, and Khaludh who executed it from Rines (as he won the die roll when he and Nigel tied for the duchy of Rines).

They joined Riombara to form a colony to serve the monsters, and Rines seceded with them to form a colony the serve the monsters. I really fail to see how the fact that it wasn't planned that the colony would form from Rines is of any importance. They joined to get a colony from Rio, Rio let them in, and they ended up getting what they came for. Rio knew what these people were coming for. If Rio opposed the idea of a colony for the monsters, then they simply wouldn't have let them in.

And Enweil's ceasefire with the daimons is no worse than Rio's with the monsters.

[Anaris]

Rio knew what these people were coming for.

No, we didn't.

Even if we had, we would have allowed them to join—as was Riombara's general policy—but forbidden them from making such a colony.

Is it really so very hard for you to believe that Riombara did not approve of, condone, sanction, or in any other way support the creation of a quasi-hostile realm that took most of its good regions with it to do something it has always categorically opposed?

[Velax]

And Enweil's ceasefire with the daimons is no worse than Rio's with the monsters.

So now does Rio get to bitch and complain and monopolise every Beluaterra thread for years to complain about it, too?