Enweil & Ally vs Riombara

[Geronus]

And Enweil's ceasefire with the daimons is no worse than Rio's with the monsters.

I don't care about that, personally. We did have a ceasefire with the monsters for a time, which we eventually chose to break; they offered one out of the blue (from our perspective, anyway), and we took it since we really weren't in any position to refuse. It was either accept or die pointlessly, as at the time they made the offer Lance of Gilgamesh was occupying Grehk and could have started a TO at any time, had he so chosen. We were completely at their mercy.

What does irritate me is your endless campaign to misrepresent what happened. You weren't there and you don't really know anything about what transpired inside Riombara that isn't pure hearsay, so please stop lying about it. You are literally making this up. I know you are, because unlike you, I was there. If there was any agreement between KoA and the monsters, that wasn't general knowledge in Riombara. I was the General at the time, and Anaris was the Chancellor, and both of us are telling you that we didn't know.

[Lorgan]

And Enweil's ceasefire with the daimons is no worse than Rio's with the monsters.

Are you talking about Enweil's alliance with the daimons in the 4th invasion or Enweil's surrender to them this invasion?

And well, what everyone else has said: stop lying already. It gets tiring after a few years.

[Chenier]

I don't care about that, personally. We did have a ceasefire with the monsters for a time, which we eventually chose to break; they offered one out of the blue (from our perspective, anyway), and we took it since we really weren't in any position to refuse. It was either accept or die pointlessly, as at the time they made the offer Lance of Gilgamesh was occupying Grehk and could have started a TO at any time, had he so chosen. We were completely at their mercy.

What does irritate me is your endless campaign to misrepresent what happened. You weren't there and you don't really know anything about what transpired inside Riombara that isn't pure hearsay, so please stop lying about it. You are literally making this up. I know you are, because unlike you, I was there. If there was any agreement between KoA and the monsters, that wasn't general knowledge in Riombara. I was the General at the time, and Anaris was the Chancellor, and both of us are telling you that we didn't know.

You are stating that you didn't know things that were going on in your own realm that people outside of it knew, which is rather hard to believe to say the least. That you didn't know doesn't mean that you couldn't have known, however (Rio is good at deluding itself), and it certainly doesn't mean that no one in Rio knew. I'm pretty sure I used the knowledge I had to slander Riombara as it happened, I think I may have even put it on the propaganda newspaper I was running at the time. The knowledge was most definitely public. You probably just chose to ignore the facts, as with a great deal of other things, because it inconvenienced you, as Rio always does.

The sum of opposing vectors is zero. That's what happened during the fourth invasion. The monsters and daimons were pitted against each other, and the weaker side was aided against the stronger side, in order to keep a null sum. To side with none would have resulted in the same as siding with the monsters: more destruction and more blight. The surrender in the fifth was the same as Rio's in the fourth: it was just pointless to die. By surrender, the daimons were effectively made weaker, because cities were unblighted and daimon worship spread was resisted.

[vonGenf]

(Rio is good at deluding itself)

We, humbly, learned from the master.

[Anaris]

You are stating that you didn't know things that were going on in your own realm that people outside of it knew, which is rather hard to believe to say the least. That you didn't know doesn't mean that you couldn't have known, however (Rio is good at deluding itself), and it certainly doesn't mean that no one in Rio knew. I'm pretty sure I used the knowledge I had to slander Riombara as it happened, I think I may have even put it on the propaganda newspaper I was running at the time. The knowledge was most definitely public. You probably just chose to ignore the facts, as with a great deal of other things, because it inconvenienced you, as Rio always does.

So, your contention is that, rather than the simple answer (that the people intending to form a secession from Riombara that opposed its basic principles actually kept it secret from Riombara's leadership), we knew all about the planned secession, chose to allow it, even when it crippled Riombara and led very, very close to our total destruction, and then lied about knowing about it, and continue, five years or more after the fact, to conspire with each other to lie to you about knowing about the planned Meridian secession.

That sounds like it would make perfect sense in the Chénier-verse, but here in the real world, sorry, mate, but that sort of thing is just ridiculous.

[Geronus]

You are stating that you didn't know things that were going on in your own realm that people outside of it knew, which is rather hard to believe to say the least. That you didn't know doesn't mean that you couldn't have known, however (Rio is good at deluding itself), and it certainly doesn't mean that no one in Rio knew. I'm pretty sure I used the knowledge I had to slander Riombara as it happened, I think I may have even put it on the propaganda newspaper I was running at the time. The knowledge was most definitely public. You probably just chose to ignore the facts, as with a great deal of other things, because it inconvenienced you, as Rio always does.

I can't ignore what I don't know about. As Anaris pointed out, what motivation could we possibly have to lie about this so many years down the line? I'm telling you, we didn't know.

Sure, some people in Riombara probably did. They would most likely be the people who formed the conspiracy to secede Rines and create the Meridian Republic, people like Mordred and Khaludh. By definition, conspiracies are kept secret from those who aren't a part of them, so again, we didn't know what they were planning at the time, and if we had we probably would have taken steps to prevent them from doing it. We very well might not have succeeded given that they controlled two Dukes, the Judge and several other region lords, but we certainly would have tried everything in our power to stop them.

You can disregard everything I'm saying and assume I'm pursuing some sort of agenda, but I assure you, I have none. I really could care less about the fact that you have a serious nut against Riombara, but it irks me when you say things that are flatly untrue where they concern my characters. Among those who stayed in Riombara after the secession of the Meridian Republic, there was no general foreknowledge of anything that Lefanis and the others had been planning. Simple common sense should suffice to make that clear. If we were so intent on making a deal with the monsters, MR would never have needed to secede; it would have been Riombara's official policy.

[Telrunya]

Khaludh had no clue till after he was elected Duke of Rines and Mordred approached him with the idea of secession. He didn't had any plans to secede till then and didn't even campaign for Rines, I just didn't bother getting him out of the election.

[Chenier]

So, your contention is that, rather than the simple answer (that the people intending to form a secession from Riombara that opposed its basic principles actually kept it secret from Riombara's leadership), we knew all about the planned secession, chose to allow it, even when it crippled Riombara and led very, very close to our total destruction, and then lied about knowing about it, and continue, five years or more after the fact, to conspire with each other to lie to you about knowing about the planned Meridian secession.

That sounds like it would make perfect sense in the Chénier-verse, but here in the real world, sorry, mate, but that sort of thing is just ridiculous.

You are repeating your own bull!@#$ so often that you have come to actually believe it.

Micro Enweil.png   June 28, 2010   Micro Enweil.png
"For Riombara and the Monsters", take 2
The results are in. 46% of Riombarans wanted an alliance with the monsters in order to destroy Enweil and Avalon. Equally, they rejected the option to wage war on the monsters. If they are a bit shy to commit, we get a clear sense of their values.

Addenda: To add to the hypocrisy, the author of a less-reputable newspaper of the south, Mordred Lefanis the judge of Riombara, has complained about "unwarranted attacks" by this paper on the people of Riombara. It is to be noted that this is the man who wrote up the proposed alliance and who did all he can to make the alliance with the monsters pass.


Micro Enweil.png   June 27, 2010   Micro Enweil.png
"For Riombara and the Monsters"
Or so should the hypocrite in power there start to sign his letters. Riombara is currently voting on a proposed alliance with the monsters in which they would allow the monsters to destroy Enweil and Avalon to give more land to the monster-aligned Dominion. This proposed alliance is brought forth by none other than their great Chamberlain, Mordred Lefanis, a so-called "defender of humanity" who passed most of his days since the last invasion accusing others of collaborating with inhumans and making up evidence. More and more southerners are flocking to Enweil, disgusted by their leaders, to join a land that knows what dignity, honour, and courage are.

You guys freaking VOTED on allying the monsters. And it almost passed. KoA had already submitted to the monsters by then, the terms for which were very much public. Annaej had already joined the monsters herself.

And this was very much so before the secession of Rines. So yea, I call total bull!@#$ when you say that the secession took you by total surprise and that you never could have seen it coming. Some of you may have been clueless, but definitely not not all of you. And those who had no idea were indeed very clueless: it could not have been any more obvious than it was. There might not have been an elaborate plan, and Rines might not have been chosen as the spot to do so until the very end, but the general idea of a colony for the monsters was very public and was circulating since well before you took any of the allurians into your realm, and it was clear even before the secession, thanks to that vote, that a vast portion of your nobles were in favor of fighting against humanity.

[Fleugs]

You are repeating your own bull!@#$ so often that you have come to actually believe it.

Says the Chénier.

[Geronus]

And this was very much so before the secession of Rines. So yea, I call total bull!@#$ when you say that the secession took you by total surprise and that you never could have seen it coming. Some of you may have been clueless, but definitely not not all of you. And those who had no idea were indeed very clueless: it could not have been any more obvious than it was. There might not have been an elaborate plan, and Rines might not have been chosen as the spot to do so until the very end, but the general idea of a colony for the monsters was very public and was circulating since well before you took any of the allurians into your realm, and it was clear even before the secession, thanks to that vote, that a vast portion of your nobles were in favor of fighting against humanity.

You're completely making that up based on a pair of referendums which had nothing to do with either colonies or secessions. Those referendums were about what Riombara would do. As you can see, opinion was split, but there wasn't majority support for either option. That didn't necessarily mean that someone was going to basically start a civil war over the issue. After all, I wanted to fight the monsters, and you didn't see me planning a secession just because the referendum to fight them didn't pass. It does not naturally follow that someone who doesn't get their way in a democratic system is going to start planning a coup the very next day.

It's easy for you to sit there on your high horse with the full benefit of hindsight and lecture us about how we should have seen it coming, but frankly you weren't there, so shut up and stop telling me what I did and didn't know already.

[Chenier]

You're completely making that up based on a pair of referendums which had nothing to do with either colonies or secessions. Those referendums were about what Riombara would do. As you can see, opinion was split, but there wasn't majority support for either option. That didn't necessarily mean that someone was going to basically start a civil war over the issue. After all, I wanted to fight the monsters, and you didn't see me planning a secession just because the referendum to fight them didn't pass. It does not naturally follow that someone who doesn't get their way in a democratic system is going to start planning a coup the very next day.

It's easy for you to sit there on your high horse with the full benefit of hindsight and lecture us about how we should have seen it coming, but frankly you weren't there, so shut up and stop telling me what I did and didn't know already.

Except that I was saying you'd do it before you even did it, so it's hardly just hindsight.

I've always maintained the same position, and the records show that I had evidence to back up my claims before any of them actually came true. If a foreigner saw it coming, then an insider could have and should have as well.

[Lefanis]

It's easy for you to sit there on your high horse with the full benefit of hindsight and lecture us about how we should have seen it coming, but frankly you weren't there, so shut up and stop telling me what I did and didn't know already.

He has a high horse?

[Geronus]

Except that I was saying you'd do it before you even did it, so it's hardly just hindsight.

I've always maintained the same position, and the records show that I had evidence to back up my claims before any of them actually came true. If a foreigner saw it coming, then an insider could have and should have as well.

You're so incredibly biased that it's hard to take anything you have to say about Riombara seriously, as you will always assume the worst about them and draw conclusions accordingly, much as you've been doing throughout this thread. You would be inclined to reach a conclusion that Riombara was going to betray humanity because that's the conclusion you wanted to come to, regardless of the facts you were looking at. You have a way of interpreting facts creatively when it comes to Riombara, so I would have been far more impressed if someone (anyone) else had said the same thing.

By all means though, introduce your evidence. I'm actually curious. I can tell you right now that it's either willfully misinterpreted or it involves things that I had no knowledge of.

[Sacha]

By all means though, introduce your evidence.

*crickets chirping as a tumbleweed rolls by*

[Gustav Kuriga]

*ahem* I would like to point out that I've seen the same thing that Chenier has been saying about Riombara. Pretty much all the rebuttals have been coming from players in Riombara, who have been saying that they had to make peace with the monsters or be overrun. Well, that's great and all, but then you turn around and point the finger at Enweil for surrendering to the daimons. Hypocrisy much?