Titan System Revalation

[Gustav Kuriga]

Oh, don't worry about using my name as an example. It just makes me feel cooler.

Anyways, I just wanted to point out that just because I pointed out the open/closed forum difference does not mean I recommend a closed forum. I just don't like it when people use irrelevant examples.

[Tom]

Unfortunately, BM is just too big and diverse for consensus-based enforcement of the rules. There are inherent adversarial qualities to the game (political and military conflict), and relatively few of its players know each other in real life. Not everyone will willingly adhere to the spirit of the game as conceived of by Tom. Some people just want to win, and are perfectly willing to abuse game mechanics and use OOC methods (like multi-accounting) to do so. Others want to role-play elves, pirates, ninjas or stranger things. Some people cannot escape their modern mindsets and conceptions of peasants (especially adventurers) as some sort of noble proletariat. Or shake the conviction that democracy is the best form of government.

Consensus will *never* be had in a community of this size. Every decision made will *always* make some people unhappy. This is inevitable.

I agree to that completely. And still I think and open discussion will give us more force. Right now, many of the people who want to play ninjas will get a reprimand, and largely shrug it off. Because it comes from nowhere, has no context, it's just a message.

Remember that I said "consensus", I never said "equal votes". If someone goes about insulting another players' (not characters'!) mum for three pages, the consensus would clearly be that that's not ok, even if the accused recruits 20 of his friends to chime in "nah, just fine". My hope is that this consensus, with many different voices, would have more force than a single out-of-nowhere Titan reprimand.

[Geronus]

Remember that I said "consensus", I never said "equal votes". If someone goes about insulting another players' (not characters'!) mum for three pages, the consensus would clearly be that that's not ok, even if the accused recruits 20 of his friends to chime in "nah, just fine". My hope is that this consensus, with many different voices, would have more force than a single out-of-nowhere Titan reprimand.

You have a point, but I am concerned about what will happen with cases that are not so cut and dry where opinion is split and emotions are high. Especially in cases where there is an accusation of abuse of some kind - strategic capital moves or violations of the IR. Furthermore, the person on the receiving end of the above process may well try to defend themselves only to get shouted down. They're going to end up feeling persecuted. It could indeed turn into a witch hunt of sorts, as someone else said. Furthermore, you run the risk of discovering that the community would prefer a different sort of game. You might find, for example, that more people support the idea of allowing someone to role-play a ninja than not, or that majority opinion interprets the IR differently than you do. If something like that happened the resulting decision would just make more people angry and lead the accused player to feel vindicated in spite of Titan punishment.

I just think there's a real Pandora's box possibility here. I think the current system would be better than dragging these things out into a public forum. Do I think the current system is more than a little arbitrary? Yes. Would I ever complain about it though? No. Do you know why? Because I have a hard time seeing myself on the wrong end of a Titan decision, and if it ever did happen it would be my mistake and that's that. Live, learn and get over it. I have to wonder whether the people who complain about the current system are really attacking it because they don't agree with The Rules and/or cannot play by them. Since the Titans are the vehicle through which enforcement of The Rules get handed down, attacking them is tantamount to saying "I don't agree with The Rules (or at least with how they are applied)". The proposed system takes this basic position and gives it a public forum.

I can understand the urge to try to bring these people into the open and watch the weight of the community crash down on them, but it could easily go the other way.

[Igelfeld]

You have a point, but I am concerned about what will happen with cases that are not so cut and dry where opinion is split and emotions are high. Especially in cases where there is an accusation of abuse of some kind - strategic capital moves or violations of the IR. Furthermore, the person on the receiving end of the above process may well try to defend themselves only to get shouted down. They're going to end up feeling persecuted. It could indeed turn into a witch hunt of sorts, as someone else said.

I just think there's a real Pandora's box possibility here. I think the current system would be better than dragging these things out into a public forum.

I completely agree. If there are abuses, I think that only those involved with it need to be aware of it.

[Stue (DC)]

I would vote (if voting is allowed) to Anaris' proposal, which balances some current problems that might happen among Titans while not changing basic structure.

Silent complaints were always understood by me as a means to not disturb game atmosphere wile some eventual process takes place.

We already, in my opinion, have problems that too much OOC discussions "sucks life" out of game, where large majority of potential disputes can be brought in-game, but many players, when they become upset in-character, run to ooc domain.

of course, some issues related to titans cannot be solved in game, but public discussion would possibly turn it into typical chat forum flame, and almost everything interesting would be pulled out of game. not to mention the fact that final outcome of such discussion would directly influence many in-game destinies.

in-game political wars could easily become ooc forum wars. we already have tendency that many players who feel urge to enter in-game discussions do not make effort to learn to express in-game, but talk mostly ooc for many months, whole assemblies of players who get used to conduct say 80% of discussions ooc in all occassions where somthing funny could be developed. that degrades game, clearly.

i am saying all that not to blame any single player, but out of my belief it could have been improved much with adequate policy.

instead of encouraging such discussions, transparency could be improved if cases would be announced afterwards in special forum place.

to not anger tom, these would NOT resemble court cases. court cases means public which is allowed to attend discussions, so announcing cases after decision would be more dissimilar from courts than public discussions would.

purpose of such announcements would be to enable better understanding of how rules are to be applied to everyone interested, and even clear signs of Titan mistakes would not hurt such system, but would enable everyone to be better in future

[Tom]

You have a point, but I am concerned about what will happen with cases that are not so cut and dry where opinion is split and emotions are high. Especially in cases where there is an accusation of abuse of some kind

These are where we have the greatest chances to make something better. Right now, there is a ruling and then - the discussions continue unchanged. Usually, those who got smacked will come up with a bull!@#$ explanation, from "the Titans are out to get us" to "make it less obvious next time". Anything but a simple "ok, we did wrong".

In cases with split opinions, one of two things can happen.
One, a consensus emerges. I have hopes that this could happen quite often.
Two, the "owner of the game" takes the final word, and explains why. Discussion can continue to clear up remaining confusions. Most importantly, discussions continued will show if everyone agrees, and if not what follow-up actions are required to get everyone on the same track again.

[Tom]

Well, I do hear you and there are some good points in there.

How about we simply test it? It would require only two relatively simple changes:

• post Titans complaints to the accused as an informative message, anonymous of course
• add a "take this complaing public" button available to the complainer and the accused, so either can decide if he wants to try his case in a public forum

In case of 2, a message would be posted into the forum, anonymously, containing the complaint. A note would be added for the Titans so they can easily check the discussion. The judgement would still be made in the current Titan system, but the public discussion may show us whose fears and hopes are right or wrong.

[Geronus]

OK Tom. You have convinced me to an extent that this is not a terrible idea, if only because then the reasoning behind every decision would be publicly known. I agree with you on the benefits of this, but I feel it could be achieved by simply announcing decisions on the forums after they're made and permitting comment after the fact.

There are a few particulars that I think should still be carefully considered. I can't say I like the idea of the accuser's identity being made public, or for that matter the defendant's. When possible, the description of events should be generalized. Of course in some cases it will be obvious, and if either party wants to go public in the ensuing discussion, I can't say I care, but then that's their choice. I also assume that cases will be screened beforehand by the Titans to prevent merit-less cases from making it onto the forums.

I still think this has the potential to blow up in everyone's face, but who knows. Maybe six months from now we'll all be wondering why we didn't do it this way sooner.

EDIT:

Posted this before I saw Tom's second post. I very much like those ideas.

[Vellos]

The main issue I see with public postings of submitted issues and the lack of anonymity of those who report the issues is that there will then be a witch hunt.

Say Gustav there (sorry Gustav, just your name was above mine ) was under a Marshal or General who started to order him when to log in, what types of units to recruit, and what class/subclass he is to be for their war effort.  Gustav files a complaint, the Titans realize that it's not kosher with the rules.  They smack the General/Marshal.

Now, let's say his name is published.  The Judge is good friends with the General/Marshal and decides to persecute him.  Oh, he won't say it's because of the complaint, but that will be the root cause.  And judges don't *need* reasons to punish, right?  But Gustav wouldn't have been targeted if his name wasn't put out there.  He gets fined.  He gets banned.  He gets a bounty placed on his head.

All because he lacked the protections currently given.

While it's all well and good to wish that such things would never happen, there are vindictive people out there and unless they mention their reasons in the game...  There's no way for the Titans or staff to know what's truly going on.  And if such persecution starts to happen, it's only a matter of time before people are afraid to report such violations of BattleMaster's most sacred tenants. 

This is what will happen. Heck, I consider myself a good RPer and yet, if I were the judge, I'm not 100% sure I could separate my own motivations. Whereas, if I just was ignorant, I'd be fine.

Well, I do hear you and there are some good points in there.

How about we simply test it? It would require only two relatively simple changes:

• post Titans complaints to the accused as an informative message, anonymous of course
• add a "take this complaing public" button available to the complainer and the accused, so either can decide if he wants to try his case in a public forum

In case of 2, a message would be posted into the forum, anonymously, containing the complaint. A note would be added for the Titans so they can easily check the discussion. The judgement would still be made in the current Titan system, but the public discussion may show us whose fears and hopes are right or wrong.

Please, please, please no. Writing styles are easily recognizable. I already have to disguise my writing style when trying to forge letters, don't make me do it for Titan complaints too. Why would I hold that anonymity so near and dear? See Draco's comment. Because I just don't think most human beings are systematically and reliably capable of separating motivations in those situations. If you know that someone has engaged in an OOC action against a player (perhaps one you were friends with) and, say, you disagree with the Titans' ruling, then it is very difficult to separate your mental states.

Regarding the second point: even worse. Lets say I file a complaint against someone. I don't want them to have a chance to throw me to the court of public opinion. Because, frankly, when I file a complaint, I don't file it only when I KNOW something is wrong. I file it when I have probable cause. But in the court of public opinion, my referral of their behavior to the Titans will be interpreted as an attack on the defendant.

To restate, when I complain to the Titans, it is usually in the mood of, "Is this wrong?" It will be interpreted by the mob (and lets face it, we BM players are a mob) as me saying "This is wrong!" It will be interpreted as an attack.

I just cannot see how reducing the independence and neutrality of the system can possibly help. Expanding the Titan pool and posting precedent would be effective and valuable tools, and confront the root issue of misunderstandings about the nature of the Titans and of The Rules. Increased consensus building and reduction of independence and neutrality seems more likely to confuse the function of the Titans and further obfuscate The Rules as they become increasingly a subject of public opinion.

[Gloria]

Please, please, please no. Writing styles are easily recognizable. I already have to disguise my writing style when trying to forge letters, don't make me do it for Titan complaints too. Why would I hold that anonymity so near and dear? See Draco's comment. Because I just don't think most human beings are systematically and reliably capable of separating motivations in those situations. If you know that someone has engaged in an OOC action against a player (perhaps one you were friends with) and, say, you disagree with the Titans' ruling, then it is very difficult to separate your mental states.

Ditto.  And even with good English skills, it's very easy to notice first-language patterns in those who speak it as a second language.  And I believe the proposed system has the potential to turn into Titan/witch-hunting

[Shenron]

Ditto.  And even with good English skills, it's very easy to notice first-language patterns in those who speak it as a second language.  And I believe the proposed system has the potential to turn into Titan/witch-hunting

Oh come on, people don't pay that much attention to writing. Simply leave out some of the characteristic rhetorical questions (or whatever you may do a lot) and the signatory on the end of a message and walla: you could be anyone.

I don't mean it's that easy but seriously, only a few people who play very closely with you will probably be reading your messages thoroughly and even those people will never be sure. Diverting attention is a great way to change the human thinking process. For example if you already assume it's not a person you know, you may point out a similarity in their writing to someone you do know, but in the end you will "find" things that are different: even if they were written by the same guy/gal.

Perhaps we should disguise names instead of conceal them?

[Perth]

I pretty much agree with the sentiment that bringing things to a public forum for public contribution is a bad idea.

Remember that I said "consensus", I never said "equal votes". If someone goes about insulting another players' (not characters'!) mum for three pages, the consensus would clearly be that that's not ok, even if the accused recruits 20 of his friends to chime in "nah, just fine". My hope is that this consensus, with many different voices, would have more force than a single out-of-nowhere Titan reprimand.

Then why the need for public discussion of things? If the need is to merely make people understand why what they are doing is wrong, I don't see why the Titans cannot provide such information in their Titan decision... the addition of precedent cases being added to the Wiki (and cited in decisions) I think would be great help.

[De-Legro]

Or, throw your message through google translate to some language, have it converted back again and post. I've not tested that but with the inherent mistakes automatic translators make you should end up with something different to what you started with Might just need to check that it is still on topic though.

[Bedwyr]

Oh come on, people don't pay that much attention to writing.

Yes, they do.  I've had a number of characters either forge or deal with potentially forged letters, and I do note when someone's writing style changes.  It's also one of the tell-tale signs for multis if they all have the same writing style, so I keep an eye out for that as well (though the better multis disguise that).

[Perth]

Yes, they do.  I've had a number of characters either forge or deal with potentially forged letters, and I do note when someone's writing style changes.  It's also one of the tell-tale signs for multis if they all have the same writing style, so I keep an eye out for that as well (though the better multis disguise that).

I agree fully. It's even more so obvious for non-native English speakers. They consistently write the same way and always make the same small mistakes, etc. It's pretty easy to identify them.