Toughts about Rasicism, Sexism, Homophobia in game?

[Swiftblade]

I just read a very interesting discussion about racism in game, and found quite a few flaws in peoples arguments.

One: The social contract says we should play the game as with friends. Well I am racist with my friends, because we find it comedic. We don't openly hate on people, but it is very stereotypical. People are complaining that you could offend strangers with racial slurs, well if we are playing with friends, my friends don't care.

Two: We are talking about IN-GAME messages and roleplays, in a medieval atmosphere. In those times, women were considered inferior, gays were considered sick or heathen, and racism was an open reason to go to war. The issue I have, is people bringing their OOC attitudes into a game. Its the same issue i have when people judge Shakespeare with a 21st century attitude. It was a different time.

I believe that it should be a realm by realm and per character basis. In medieval times, a knight might be angry that his duke kept black slaves, or liked to kill asian peasants, but would not likely voice it because it was not his place. However, another duke may openly denounce them, maybe with a duel. Then it would be up to the ruler to mitigate the dispute in game.

In one realm it may be fine for a woman to have power and men not, and vice versa. In this case, railing against them will make no difference. Why not go the medieval route and plot a rebellion? Or leave and share secrets with the enemy who will respect your gender?

If we all start playing as if everything was all fair and equal back then, then we are deluding ourselves. Other races were often feared and hated, just because they were different. Gays could be stoned in the streets, bastards were often left to die or killed, underage girls were often married and were having sex around the ages of 10-12, and women were often seen as second class citizens.

These facts give the rulers of realms and nobles, the ability to change that history within the game. I myself am bi-sexual, but if my character met someone who was openly sharing relations with someone of the same sex, he would hate and fear them for that specific reason. Its a game.

Whats everyone elses opinion?

[Anaris]

There is no Africa in BattleMaster.

There is no Asia.

There are no established, physically described ethnicities apart from Elves.

Until and unless such ethnicities are established, any derogatory comments accompanied by a description that pretty clearly refers to a RL ethnic group can only be considered as RL racism, pure and simple, and has absolutely no place in this game.

[Scarlett]

women were considered inferior,

Not in BM, obviously. This convention just does not exist in Battlemaster.

Well I am racist with my friends,

Probably the 'play as if you were with your friends' comment was meant generally, not as a literal direction to behave in BM however it is you behave around your friends.

, and racism was an open reason to go to war.

Not so much. Religious differences were a far bigger reason. Not to say there was no racism, but you did not have lots of races all in the same place very often. You did have neighbors who were heretics or heathens, and if it so happened they were a slightly different color, that would help - but the Vikings did not invade Saxony or England because Saxons weren't vikings. They wanted loot. The reconquista did not happen because white people didn't like brown people; it happened because Catholics couldn't stand losing the whole of Iberia to the moors.

If we all start playing as if everything was all fair and equal back then

I don't think that any serious argument has been made in favor of applying 21st century egalitarianism to Battlemaster. The only real change in the rules is the consideration for women in combat, which is big but fairly easy to make.

Other races were often feared and hated, just because they were different. Gays could be stoned in the streets, bastards were often left to die or killed, underage girls were often married and were having sex around the ages of 10-12, and women were often seen as second class citizens.

This is all true but to hand this kind of ammunition to amateur writers and RPers is to ask for an internet clusterf*ck. To address these topics requires a certain degree of sensitivity and also extensive knowledge of how and why they occurred in the Middle Ages. In the right hands, it could be insightful or revealing; employed as a bludgeon against another character you don't like it's just the lazy way out in the same way that graphic sex and violence on television are often the lazy way out. You have to know the rules before you can break them and while I would applaud a serious attempt to play a character as openly gay, it'd be a very difficult exercise and with so many pitfalls for players rather than characters to go from 'hey fun battlemaster escape' to 'augh modern day bigotry' that I'd just as soon go without.

Frankly, I'm impressed when people bother to spend a few minutes learning about medieval politics or society. That you're aware of a generalized medieval bigotry does not arm you sufficiently to write it into your character in a meaningful way. Maybe you can (I don't know you) but it's hard for me and I've been at it for a while.

On a more historical note, I would also point out that much of what you describe did not go without complaint in the middle ages. The church was tremendously corrupt but your average, everyday person was no more comfortable with the idea of a ten year old getting married than we are today. In a noble family where heirs could mean war or peace you might jump the gun as soon as the girl was capable of producing offspring, but I would be careful about overgeneralizing how bad things were. The whole reason that people put up with the corrupt Catholic church is that they did not want a return to the Dark ages when there was really no authority at all to stop this sort of thing.

[anoobowner]

Until and unless such ethnicities are established, any derogatory comments accompanied by a description that pretty clearly refers to a RL ethnic group can only be considered as RL racism, pure and simple, and has absolutely no place in this game.

^This is pretty much a perfect opinion. I think you really just have to 'use your head'. Battlemaster tends not to write down every rule of conduct, and expects that you know what respectable means. Even though medieval noblemen can be thought of as blood-thirsty racists, rapists, and extortionists it does not mean we necessarily ought to act that way.

Battlemaster is an international game played by an international community, and we should all respect the sensibilities of each other.

[Dishman]

There are no established, physically described ethnicities apart from Elves.

I approve of racism against the smelly Elves.

Whats everyone elses opinion?

I'm of the opinion that A. Stop if a friend is upset (which is common, some people genuinely have thin skin about a host of topics), B. Don't be offensive for offenses sake, C. Keep it detached from the real world.

I'd like to think the game is PG-13 when dealing with the public, but I expect you can go R with a smaller group that has made it clear that they are comfortable with it. The biggest part of 'playing with friends' is knowing which group of friends is willing to accept what.

[egamma]

I think being racist against elves and daemons is enough, and doesn't hurt anyone IRL.

I'm pretty sure the sexism thing is disallowed, and I don't see a reason to change it.

There's plenty of room for religious persecution in the game--why do you need more than that?

[Foxglove]

We are talking about IN-GAME messages and roleplays, in a medieval atmosphere. In those times, women were considered inferior, gays were considered sick or heathen, and racism was an open reason to go to war. The issue I have, is people bringing their OOC attitudes into a game. Its the same issue i have when people judge Shakespeare with a 21st century attitude. It was a different time.

Everyone here approaches Battlemaster through the prism of life in the 20th/21st centuries. Even those of us with some understanding of medieval history would never pretend we can transport ourselves into the mindset of a medieval noble, because the Middle Ages and the medieval mind are a totally alien world to us. The more you learn, the more alien it becomes. Those people who judge Shakespeare with a 21st century attitude are actually being pretty honest and recognising that Shakespeare is reinvented by every era as people reinterpret his work for their own time. I can assure you that you can't put yourself into the mind of an Elizabethen English person living in 16th century London. Unless you've spent many years of your life studying 16th century England, in which case you probably could for a short time before your mind snaps back into the present.

Racism, and other bigotry, should never find a home in this game on the grounds that it went on in the Middle Ages. The bottom line is that this is a game played by an international community, and the chances are quite high that someone might be offended by anything that skirts too close to modern bigotry. There's also the possibilty that if outright racist RPs suddenly started to appear in BM, and the wrong person took offence, the game may actually fall foul of European laws concerning incitement to racial hatred.

Bottom line - there's no need for it. Play nice as if you were playing a board game at a friend's place where they may have invited people over that you don't know.

[Tom]

It's really very simple:

IC racism, etc. is perfectly ok AS LONG AS BOTH PARTIES a) CLEARLY UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS IC and b) ARE OK WITH IT.

And it's your job to make sure about the other party BEFOREHAND.


I'm a post-feminism, post-racism white male. I have no idea what it is like to be the subject of racism, and neither do I give the whole topic much thought, because I think discrimination is just a stupid fad of the past, like the belief the earth is flat or that gods exist. But I understand that these can be touchy subject to those more involved, so I don't want to see OOC racism and I understand some people might not want to see IC racism, and please respect their wishes, just like we have a guideline that says while religion is a part of the game, please keep your real world religion out of it.

[Stabbity]

As with anything, you have to sit down and look at what you're about to do.

Is it edgy? Okay, fine. Is this in good taste? Yes, go ahead. No? Rework it. Would this be offensive on a totally IC level, and not an OOC level? Yes? Good. And the most important question you need to ask yourself: Am I being an ass with this RP/letter/etc? If the answer is yes, scrap it until you can not be an ass about it.

Then you never have to worry.

[Tiridia]

Being racist about different assumed ethnic groups based on BM regions might be a safe bet. Of course if you add to it some distinctive traits of how they look, problems might arise. Discrimination based on IG religions should work well enough for most purposes. Or that which is based on anything you can find IG.

[egamma]

Being racist about different assumed ethnic groups based on BM regions might be a safe bet. Of course if you add to it some distinctive traits of how they look, problems might arise. Discrimination based on IG religions should work well enough for most purposes. Or that which is based on anything you can find IG.

It's pretty safe to say, "Those Ravielans sure are smelly!" And "those Kid Rockers have outrageous accents!"

[Buffalkill]

"those Kid Rockers have outrageous accents!"

Is it my imagination, or did you just make a subtle Python reference? "Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8yjNbcKkNY

[Blue Star]

Let's keep it out of the game, else I will be forced to bring in my magic stick and really start taking over!

Honestly, beside messing with sirion and it's elf population which I hear has gotten smaller, lets keep it out. If it comes up shut it down. If it doesn't lets not discuss it further. However, homophobia did exist back then so I don't know about that mm best bet RP it. It can only take you onto a adventure.

Yup sounds good to me what do you think Fizban?

[egamma]

Is it my imagination, or did you just make a subtle Python reference? "Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8yjNbcKkNY

Guilty as charged.

[Wolfang]

How people can be offended in an OOC way if you are racist towards their ingame region or people baffles me.