Why so few Infiltrators?

[Gustav Kuriga]

I agree with you, but would note this isn't a fully-fledged feature request thread either. Perhaps someone should summarize the proposed points in a clearly laid out way and distinguish what would be a basic implementation versus additional, down the road improvements? The infiltrator class will probably need overhauled much like the mentor one, the way this conversation is going. The name infiltrator may not even be appropriate anymore.

That would be good. Basic implementation should always be the first goal, advanced stuff comes in later once you have the base system working.

[Anaris]

Joy, we're over-complicating this as usually happens.

What is going on right now is feature-creep. Please, do not come up with overly complex ideas that would be a pain to code. That's just going to increase the workload unbearably for small gains.

No, please do not be afraid of this here.

This is a brainstorming thread, and though you should not expect more than a small fraction of what appears here to ever make it to production, I am gleaning useful ideas out of it. Having other people work through the implications of various of these scenarios is helpful to me, especially right now, when it's very hot, which leaves me with significantly less usable brain than usual.

[vonGenf]

Here's a brainstorm idea for mechanics: create NPC spies with the same mechanics as Sages. They are few and far between, move slowly and randomly between regions. To recruit a spy, you must be in the same region as he is. If you succesfully recruit him, you can then send him orders from wherever you are, but he can only act in the region he is currently located. You can lose a spy if he receives a larger offer from a different spymaster.

e.g.., a spymaster from Keplerstan poses as an ambassador to travel to Evilstan. While travelling, he spends hours to search for spies and finds two: James who lives in the Evilstani capital, and  Mata who roams the border between Keplerstan and Evilstan. Later, while Evilstan prepares for war, a spymaster from Evilstan tries to find all spies to avoid Keplerian interference. He finds James and offers him a larger sum, taking him under his command. However he never finds Mata. Now Kepler has a spy on the borderlands; when Evilstani nobles find themselves in the same region as Mata they run risks of being attacked.

While I don't know the code, it seems the mechanic for spies could use the same design as sages. Instead of having the infiltration options towards the nobles in their regions, spymasters would have the same options but towards nobles in the regions where their spies are. All that remains would be to handle which spies works for whom.

[Vellos]

I like vonGenf's format.

HEre are things I think spies, if implemented as vonGenf proposes, should be able to do:

1. Attack specific, targeted nobles
2. Be bribed to go turncoat
3. Sabotage infrastructure, roads, etc
4. Steal gold
5. Burn food supplies
6. Scout the region they are in
7. Incite peasant unrest
8. Pass on messages sent to "everyone in region" or game updates like that
9. Reduce estate efficiency
10. Rob temples/guildhouses
11. Be given a general, "attack some random noble" order: can't choose a target, but higher chance of success maybe
12. If captured, reveal like a mini-torture report (maybe just 5-10 messages) of the character's messages (they wouldn't know everything that the character would know if tortured, but they might know something)
13. Investigate secret societies
14. Carry out investigations similar to ruler secret police actions


Obviously many of these would require gold, or have various risks of arrest, or even a risk of the spy going turncoat (I think it would be hilarious, for example, if the "rob a temple" option had a small random chance of the spy having a crisis of conscience and leaving your service to join the priesthood).

Furthermore, I think that, if a spy is caught and confesses who his boss is, that should still provide grounds for a ban for the spymaster. Though presumably this would greatly lower the frequency of infiltrator executions and such, which would then increase the number of infils I expect.

[Stabbity]

My buddy and I were talking about this and came up with an idea we found interesting, which would make infiltrators less lone rangers, and encourage the teamwork aspect of the game:

Make infiltrator a main class, and split it off into two sub classes:

Assassin/Saboteur: Has access to the traditional infiltrator abilities and specializes in them. Works pretty much like your normal infiltrator today. In the interest of not having an infiltrator main class that does nothing, just make the Assassin/Saboteur more effective than a plain infiltrator. Allow the Infiltrator to lead troops, but don't allow the Assassin/Saboteur subclass to lead troops.

Spymaster: Sacrifices the normal infiltrator actions in favor of appearing to be a diplomat, and having access to a diplomat's abilities (save for drafting treaties), and give them a series of new options that allow infiltrators and assassin/saboteurs to be more effective. Let them spend time and gold to allow for infil actions to have a higher chance of success or escape by bribing officials to leave doors unlocked, or arranging for guards not to be present. This gets interesting, because it applies to a region, not a person. So say you arrange for guards not be around and make escapes easier... Well now your enemy's assassin/saboteur waltzes up, stabs you and escapes without a hitch because you arranged for the guards not to be present.

[Vita`]

Due to an initial misreading of vellos's mini-torture report idea, I wondered, what about a reverse torture report? A somewhat less risky than stabbing infiltration into a noble's camp to steal 5-10 messages of theirs.

[Vellos]

Due to an initial misreading of vellos's mini-torture report idea, I wondered, what about a reverse torture report? A somewhat less risky than stabbing infiltration into a noble's camp to steal 5-10 messages of theirs.

Been proposed, and rejected, I believe, due to worries that players will take communication OOG even more.

At least with a mini-torture type arrangement you at least have the ability to determine if your messages will be leaked.

[Swiftblade]

Why not go with the spymaster idea and have them more shadowy/noblish?

What I mean by that is have them as nobles that *pose* as nobility. They could have a "unit" in the form of a spy ring. They would have to recruit them all the same, hide them, feed them, clothe them just like a normal noble.

How this new unit would work is that they are more like paraphernalia than an actual fighting unit. The Infiltrator may only be able to afford to keep 3-5 of these men (could have a new skill or something to determine how many he could have). Then he could use them each turn, as scouts or saboteurs. Scouts could move further than normal scouts, due to their higher pay and skill level, and wouldn't cost the spymaster hours. Others in the Unit could be charged with being Saboteur, maybe destroying a units provisions, incapacitating a captain, kidnapping a noble (move him to a different region and have his unit have to "catch up" costing him turns.)

The infiltrator would have to be in the same region as the saboteurs targets, because he needs to set up a base of operations and coordinate the attack.

Infiltrators wouldn't have the ability to fight, unless they got rid of their expensive spy unit and got themselves a new one. They also couldn't use paraphernalia full stop while they were a Infiltrator. If their spies get wounded then they have to hide and rest. That could be like the dig in function and could take quite a few hours.

Im pretty out of it right now, but if anyone wants to know how i think this class will work, and where i think you can fit in the different changes to make less work for the coders then please ask. Also this does have historical precedence, and would make Infiltrators much more fun and useful, as saboteurs and spys, with the added bonus of less incapacitation for the victims. Dont know how the skill leveling up would work but there would be a way.

[Sarwell]

Someone mentioned wandering NPC spies. What if they could tell infiltrators rumors about the locations of nobles with sufficiently high bounties on their heads? There would be a few hitches to help balance it - the potential target could move by the time the infiltrator got there, or the spy could give a vague direction - accurate only to, say, the Duchy level, or giving a region in the general vicinity - probably adjacent - of where the noble actually is.

[Jaden]

The problem i see with Spy paraphernalia is that the problem it poses with the balance of the whole game, you will need to have buildings which Lords will have to build and they have to be priced appropriately, and i dont see many lords wanting to build them except maybe for capital city margraves, there's also the issue of limited slots for buildings..
maybe if it was a different system than paraphernalia, but not a direct extension imo

[Swiftblade]

To me, the limited building slots etc is a good thing with my idea.

It would be a different type of unit, and with my idea they would be worth it. Also if you wanted to play as that class you could petition a lord to build the building for you, and its up to what the realm deems worthy. If they believe another infantry building is what they need then thats what they would build, however if they wanted the spymaster type skills like long range scouting and sabotage, taking out key units and people, then they would invest a little money in a building for their units.

Just because a lord wouldnt wanna build it, doesnt mean the idea is bad. Its just about priorities. For me, a weaker realm could use the bonus of such a spymaster, considering they dont need to move to far to be useful, they provide an amazing service, but 2 people could do what one spymaster could do in terms of scouting, and sabotage doesnt win a war anyway.

Also it gives weaker spymaster nobles the ability to level their skill by providing army scouting's to their realm, and sabotaging weaker nobles in battle.

[Blue Star]

I just want to address that many of these are sounding heavy to code and to implement in any timely manner. Though of course worth discussing. How likely are some of these to happen.

I personally think they are fine the way they are, beside the heavy training needed, though I do wish they could be invisible again. Possible what would be cool to see is the chance of successfully performing actions would be cool to see next to them.

[Dishman]

Hmm, has anyone considered entangling infiltrators and adventurers more? All this talk of wandering NPC's and such, while there are almost invisible wandering PC all over. A true spymaster could be ran with advys already, but maybe add some benefit to infiltrators dealing with advys to send the idea home?

Say, an infiltator/spymaster can directly give gold to adventurers. Maybe give experience for infiltrators attacking advys regardless of allegiance. Maybe even give infiltrators private dungeons for advys (same mechanic as Judge's dungeon but invisible). The infiltrator is meant to do things ignoble, give them more leverage with those who aren't nobles.

It could boost the infiltrator game and the adventurer game.

[Poliorketes]

I think if we want to give a bit of life on the infiltrator class without too much coding(?), maybe the best way would be to give ALL infiltrator actions a 'leverage' as have the adventurers: From -Maximum stealth, Minimum risk- to -Very Aggressive, Maximum risk-

This way the infiltrators would begin to work without too much training... of course as less risk, less chances of success... but less chances to be caught too!

[Telrunya]

Most Infiltrator options already have a low, medium, high risk choice IIRC.