Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and fac

[Deytheur]

I feel like people are getting off the point here. Trying to drag any little bit of mud against us. Like it's 'bad taste' for us to both be rulers when actually we were both rulers before we knew each other, that I was cheating however many years ago. Please do not make such comments and wild exaggerations unless you know the whole situation.

We have been through the IG reasons for why there is this 'gangbang' what feels like a million times with various people, that is not the issue here. Most of this whole mess could have just been avoided if people had tried to talk to me instead of gossiping behind my back.

I cannot begin to describe how upset I was the morning I woke up and some friends pointed me to the forums (I don't really frequent them otherwise) to find allegations about my private life posted by people I didn't even know. And even more than this, allegations that I didn't know how to play the game properly. I wrote out a response to that post many times but I couldn't bring myself to post it because firstly I was afraid of it just giving people more fuel to use against me and secondly because I could never really find the right words to properly explain just how shocked and upset I was by both Atanamir and Velax.

After I gave up trying to reply that I thought things would quieten down when the thread was locked and then the other thread was sanitised and I have been trying to withdraw from the OOC side of the game.

Then it came up that a Titan report had been filed but the Titans hadn't found any reason to take any action. Shouldn't that be a sign that there was no reason for anyone else to care either? Player of Atanamir, if you had truly abided by the decision then why did you even feel the need to reply to the Titans to make sure they checked whether we were sending messages in game etc?

Let alone keep talking to other people about it, as it kept emerging you had. And every time you had an opportunity making snide comments and trying to turn other conversations towards it, you did. And then completely refusing to admit that you could possibly have done anything wrong made everything a lot more frustrating. I remember one conversation when it was just you talking to Delvin and he was trying to explain how you were out of line and still all you could do was argue with someone who was impartial.

It seems to me that you weren't happy with the outcome and so you had to spread these accusations further around and it all comes back to being overly competitive about an IG war.

Even reading all the things you said to Fleugs, I can't decide whether to have a good cry and quit the game myself because this level of hypocrisy and personal attacks I am struggling to cope with.

[Anaris]

I believe that two of the points Deytheur makes particularly bear repeating.

I feel like people are getting off the point here. Trying to drag any little bit of mud against us. Like it's 'bad taste' for us to both be rulers when actually we were both rulers before we knew each other, that I was cheating however many years ago. Please do not make such comments and wild exaggerations unless you know the whole situation.

This is the first.

Deytheur and Menethil are not defendants here. Their behaviour is not in question. They were reported for multicheating, investigated, and cleared. None of the other behaviour they are accused of, whether it's true or not, breaks any BM rule. They have not been harassing anyone about this issue.

Not a single thing that Deytheur and Menethil have done or said is germane to this case.

Let alone keep talking to other people about it, as it kept emerging you had. And every time you had an opportunity making snide comments and trying to turn other conversations towards it, you did. And then completely refusing to admit that you could possibly have done anything wrong made everything a lot more frustrating. I remember one conversation when it was just you talking to Delvin and he was trying to explain how you were out of line and still all you could do was argue with someone who was impartial.

This is the second important point.

I believe that this is the core of this case, and the part that the Magistrates will need to address most carefully: that  Atanamir hasn't just been harassing these two and spreading vicious rumours and slander, he feels that not only is what he is doing right, but that Menethil and Deytheur are in the wrong, and bad for the game. He does not grasp, or will not accept, that his actions are far, far worse for the game than even the worst that he has accused them of.

The truth is, a dozen multicheaters do far less damage to the game than one person who believes that spreading poisonous rumours and lies about people IC and OOC is an acceptable way to win a war.

[Solari]

Has it been mentioned yet that I asked Atanamir, privately, TWICE, to stop doing this? And he agreed to? And apparently didn't. I'm not a Magistrate, so this is just my opinion. But this is abuse. It is destroying the game, and should be punished severely.

[Atanamir]

Player of Atanamir, if you had truly abided by the decision then why did you even feel the need to reply to the Titans to make sure they checked whether we were sending messages in game etc?

It seems to me that you weren't happy with the outcome and so you had to spread these accusations further around and it all comes back to being overly competitive about an IG war.

Even reading all the things you said to Fleugs, I can't decide whether to have a good cry and quit the game myself because this level of hypocrisy and personal attacks I am struggling to cope with.

Dear Laura,

the second message to Titans was my answer to their question. I first time got a question from Titans, so I answered it in order to follow their way of working.
After my reply I got after few days the yellow message that disappears that the case was rejected. End of it.
I abided by the decision of the titans and the people I had told about the case, were informed of it so they should abide by it as well.
I didn't want to leave wrong image of you to them the logs to Fleugs show that.
The outcome is the outcome and I abided by it. It's not about being hapy or not, I do not want to put emotions in this as we have already too many emotions in this case.
I just cared if rules were broken and I tried to handle the case as sensible as I could.
For one line in those logs though I apologize, I am sure you know which I mean, I feel even too ashamed to repeat it.
Again, I am not attacking you. And none else does. OOC that is.
I never saw your relationship as something bad. Never. Because RL is above BM.
And I am sure your view is also that RL above BM.
And I find it also not fair to your own relationship when you think I did this only have an advantage over you IC. I mean what the hell do I care what you do in your free time?
But do i care if you cheat on me OOC? Yes I do. Do 50 other players in Perdan care if their realm could get destroyed due to a possible OOC connection? Yes, they do - although they didn't know anything about it, no worries.
Perdan was winning IC long before I filed the case. I had no interest in changing anything IC. I just wanted to have a decision if the situation is correct.
I wanted to know with what kind of people I play, since on IRC these people were treating me badly and at some point didn't speak to me anymore.

Now, what I from my part don't understand is, why Jason or you were not contacting me or someone earlier about it, if you heard that a titan case was field against you by me. You had chosen to not talk to me. But I am not the devil. I am not your enemy in OOC. I am a player with RL like you and everyone else. You could have told me that you feel that I am responsible about your feelings. I would have explained in all honesty how things went - and why I felt that I need to file this report. And I would apologize for the things that were wrong on my behalf. And would have sorted it out like grown ups.
From my side I did not say anything to anyone anymore as I had promised to solari to not speak a word about it anymore - not even about a theoretical case like I did on the forum. Because on forum I not one single time said to anyone that you two are together. Never.
Of course, you two could see that I was talking about this case, but none else could. Because I did not spread the word  around as you claim. Hell I don't even use Skype and it is in the thread topic. And what is fac at all?
The opening of a public magistrate case hurt your privacy even more (and this great game as well) and I really wondered why you do this. I thought the case was closed, honestly.
I know that Jason does not believe me and doesn't want to talk to me, but maybe you can tell me how this situation can be solved?
Shall I delete me char?
Shall I delete my account?
Will this make you happy?
Seriously, if it's just revenge that Jason (or you) seeks, I can give him what he wants.
I see only punishment , punishement, punishment and enraged emotions in his words towards me.
So, honestly, this is only a game, what are we really talking about now?
Do we want a solution or a punishment for this? Because no matter what happens, this will remain in the room.

What I believe more as solution is that Jason should get his account back and continue playing BM - and we sort it out in a moderated room and leave this forum because we hurt only the game here. This must stop.
This is my offer: You, Jason, Ays and a moderator. and we sort it out. As we should have done before the critical point of deleting.
I think it is not fair that someone quits after 10 years with such a reason. I wouldn't want this as well.
If you want my head besides this, you can have it. If it makes you happy.

[Geronus]

Has it been mentioned yet that I asked Atanamir, privately, TWICE, to stop doing this? And he agreed to? And apparently didn't. I'm not a Magistrate, so this is just my opinion. But this is abuse. It is destroying the game, and should be punished severely.

What brought this behavior to your attention on each occasion?

[Anaris]

Ays is having trouble logging onto the forum, and apparently even my adminly powers aren't enough to persuade it to give her more login attempts. She has sent me the following to post on her behalf:



Let us see reason.
I am good friends with Atanamir and Dobromir. That has not changed, nor will any words here alter my feelings.
We need to move forward. There is a belief that we need to bring everything out into the light, expose the faults and underbelly of our actions. Where is that getting us?  In truth we need to stop this weed from growing any bigger. Deytheur is right, the talking and more talking is doing no good.

We are all here for a reason. We love the game; we invest our time and energy in building kingdoms and forging connections; and we are family. We have the grumpy uncles, the sex obsessed nephews, the boastful teenagers, and the drunkards in the corner. We are a colorful bunch, but we are one.

Make no mistake, the trouble between Atanamir and Dobromir is not because they are so different, it is because they are so alike. They are powerful, strong-willed leaders. If we had a BM family reunion, I would sit them at different tables. But, they would both be there.

The origin of the family feud was about following the rules. Both men said things in anger. Both men wanted justice. Both men want the best for the game.  I do, too.

Here is my solution:

Dobromir has his account restored and his title removed. He pursued his privacy and punishment of Atanamir to a great ends. His efforts were to better protect the privacy of BM players. He is family, and he can play, pause or delete as he wishes.

Atanamir has his title of King removed. He worked as he does ingame, with strong counsel and Titan company to assure fair gaming in EC. His efforts were focused on fair play of this game. He is family, and he can play, pause of delete as he wishes.

Titans examine and rewrite the privacy rules. Although I told Atanamir of the relationship, the Titans confirmed his complaint. This was in fact the same break in trust which I am guilty.

Respectfully,
Ays

[Menethil]

I dont see any reason for my account to be restored.  I quit for a reason mainly I need to get away from battlemaster for a while.  Secondly even if i deleted on rash decision that would have been my fault and I shouldnt expect my account to be restored.

This whole matter isnt about punishments what I want to see done to the player.  Its mainly about ethics.  Im not going to go into lengths to say what I think or should be done to Atanamir its not my place to do so.

One thing I will say is you asked why myself and Laura never talked to you about it?  Did you talk to us in the same respect and have the decency to confront us about it?  Answer is no so dont call the kettle black.

As has been said repeatedly you could easily have kept this to yourself after you contacted the Titans.  If you 'knew' there was no reason to go talking to Fleugs or Velax if in your mind we were 'guilty' you should have gone directly to the Titans and told them not tell someone who you knew I wasnt great with.  You were competetive you wanted to win and sadly it went that step too far for you.

I will speak for myself only but I find it hard that you only became sorry for what you did after irc logs were released by Fleugs.  Whether you are or not I dont actually know all I know its hard for me to be convinced this is genuine and you learned anything from it.

For the benefit of the community its best that this case goes on so everyone knows has privacy and social contract cases will be dealt with.  Its the best for the community as a whole and hopefully everyone will be able to trust that it wont be tolerated in the end.

[Miriam Ics]

Now, what I from my part don't understand is, why Jason or you were not contacting me or someone earlier about it, if you heard that a titan case was field against you by me. You had chosen to not talk to me. But I am not the devil. I am not your enemy in OOC.

I was considering if I should post or not, but I think I need to post after reading this.

Alexandros, you should had called both Jason and Laura for a talk, in private, even before opening a Titan case against them both. You, not them. They did nothing wrong, you thought they were doing wrong. You didn't talk to them and now Jason is gone.
Now you tell me, how can you make things right? You can't, this is the truth.
Nothing you do now, will make things right. This is the problem when you say something. After you said it, you can never more unsay it and no matter what happen now, the game is a bit less funny for all of us who is somehow involved with you, with Laura, with Jason.

Now, what I wrote before.
Atanamir sometimes came to me on IRC, in private, and tried to convince me to leave Eponllyn saying how my kingdom was about to be destroyed and how Armonia would betray us. Spoke clearly that I should accept his proposal, made ​​through other characters that Myrnia, my char, knew from before, to avoid having my region destroyed and some more stuff like that. I discussed with him many times. I tried to show how my character could not simply change personality just to save her own skin, but I never said I thought he was trying to convince me oocly. That was a mistake on my part. I should make clear for him that he was pressuring me, nicely but oocly.

Not long ago, I vowed to myself never to return to the IRC because of what Atanamir said. He said, smiling to me, that trying to convince a player to join me publicly was not elegant, was "bad manner", and that I should do it in private or IC. I was very angry that day, first because I was playing with Aragon about her joining Eppy, as I always did, second, was not telling her to betray Perdan (like he said I should do to Eponllyn before) but for her to join us because we want more women in Ponyland (that is how we call Eponllyn affectionately). Third, because I believe that this kind of attitude is what ruins the fun for some players and to wear a smile at the end of the sentence does not change how unpleasant it was.
I was again wrong to not tell him how I felt.

I believe everyone have no doubt here that he did broke at least 3 rules:

• Play fairly, as with friends
  Keep other peoples' personal information personal.
  Do not publicly accuse anyone of cheating, abuses or violations of this contract without proof or evidence.

A player left the game. He explained that one reason was the attitude of the other. This is very serious and deserve a lot of attention from the magistrates and even from Tom.

(Just to add, I don't dislike Alexandros, but Myrnia hates Atanamir. :p)

[Atanamir]

This whole matter isnt about punishments what I want to see done to the player.  Its mainly about ethics.

Then please stop lying in the posts about me in here. I wanted to talk to you before Fleugs posted those logs. You weren't there, I needed to go sleep. On the next day, I could only reach you after those logs were posted. The whole battlemaster-channel is my witness. And actually I see those logs confirming what I already said. Gathering maximum evidence against a player who has been called a cheater by various sides. You also bring your friends in here to post (even irrelevant to the case) things against me, but when I do ask people what you have done to be called a cheater, it is wrong? So much about ethics. Please spare me this and be for one time straightforward to me.

One thing I will say is you asked why myself and Laura never talked to you about it?  Did you talk to us in the same respect and have the decency to confront us about it?  Answer is no so dont call the kettle black.

Alexandros, you should had called both Jason and Laura for a talk, in private, even before opening a Titan case against them both. You, not them. They did nothing wrong, you thought they were doing wrong. You didn't talk to them and now Jason is gone.

My favourite part. Here you can see the origin of the problem. All this started because I was talking with Jason/Laura.
And since Jason has also stated that he generously apoliogized to me back then I will also state what sort of apology that was.
The last chat betwen us was once more one of flames. Sadly.
I then asked Jason openly (knowing what Ays has told me) what all these OOC rumours are that Fleugs is spreading on IRC.
I gave him the chance to tell me. He of course denied it. After the falmes were over someone mediated us (can't remember) and I took Dobromir into personal query.
I told him to calm down and that we should just leave this matter and I told him again, that I just wanted to know if we have clean war and fair gaming. again I didn't say that I knew sth, since I felt that it was his part to come towards me with such an information.
His response was (this is no 1 to 1 exact wording, but I remember it like yesterday): I apologize for what I said, also I want to say that I play with no OOC people I know this game Bam.
Now I had to weigh this apology. Obviously the second part was a lie. Does that mean that the apology was sincere? I couldn't know. The trust was broken and the respect was gone from my side at this moment. And I honestly I didn't care anymore to get deeper into this, as it was not my business to find out if they are together or not. But I saw it as my business as reponsible player to find out if they were cheating.
I then consulted those who I already mentioned and then filed the report. This is where everything started. And to conlude with the part that i already told the Titans: The lying in my face might be protecting the privacy (although he told others) and that is ok but the OOC harassment and insulting is also no acceptable thing. However, I could even overlook this insulting, but I can't overlook if he OOC cheats as some players suspect. That's why I filed this complaint so we have a decision by an independent court on this.

When the Titan verdict was done, I abided by it, even though they told me, as Ays correctly stated, that the accounts are linked. I also informed of this verdict the (already listed) people I had told to.
I apologize if this led later to rumours and I fully understand that this is bad, but seriously, from my side, there was never the intention to do so. This you must believe. It may have not been in my hands anymore, have you ever thought of this possibility? And I tried hard to let it not come so far. I had talked to you before the verdict and I always tried to solve this between players first. However, still I apologize for the inconvenience - without but, when, if or similar.

Now, Miriam, I really respect you as player but what have your examples to do with this case? If it's just to create a bad atmosphere against me, then I don't understand why you do it. Although I don't need to I will answer in all shortness to your examples.
Miriam, you are veteran player and I was talking about you in OOC nature about possible scenarios of the war. mainly because Deytheur was not talking to me IC and I wondered why Eponllyn does such an IC harakiri. At no point I told you in OOC to switch to Perdan and forget your RP. In contrary I did understand now why Myrnia hates Perdan and this was for me the end of discussion. One of your players in Eponllyn told me before the war to switch 1-2 entire duchies to Eponllyn in OOC nature and I of course rejected it, as you. As veteran player you often discuss secanrios OOC but everyone knows that IC is always another thing. Please don't paint me here like some petty OOC powergamer. Please, cause you know I am not. And sicne I also did not use the piece of info we are all discussing here, I don#t understand why you wrote this at all.

Second, Aragon, is a young BM player which I mentor in Perdan. It is something else to discuss possible scenarios with a veteran player than luring a new player on IRC to switch sides. At least this is my understanding. Besides the fact that "your women only"-mentality is for me a bit excluding to other players, I certainly did not like that you were trying to get a young player on IRC to change sides like this. If you still think this is ok, we can agree to disagree. And I strongly obeject that i ever said that is ok to lure people in private on OOC. I said that IC luring of people to switch sides is ok, that I can confirm. But please for truth's sake, stick to the truth - everyone.
And I also like Miriam, although I'd wish some more detailed memory of yours to these examples when coming here to a case where I am the defendant.

Thank you very much.

[Menethil]

Then please stop lying in the posts about me in here. I wanted to talk to you before Fleugs posted those logs. You weren't there, I needed to go sleep. On the next day, I could only reach you after those logs were posted. The whole battlemaster-channel is my witness. And actually I see those logs confirming what I already said. Gathering maximum evidence against a player who has been called a cheater by various sides. You also bring your friends in here to post (even irrelevant to the case) things against me, but when I do ask people what you have done to be called a cheater, it is wrong? So much about ethics. Please spare me this and be for one time straightforward to me.

My favourite part. Here you can see the origin of the problem. All this started because I was talking with Jason/Laura.
And since Jason has also stated that he generously apoliogized to me back then I will also state what sort of apology that was.
The last chat betwen us was once more one of flames. Sadly.
I then asked Jason openly (knowing what Ays has told me) what all these OOC rumours are that Fleugs is spreading on IRC.
I gave him the chance to tell me. He of course denied it. After the falmes were over someone mediated us (can't remember) and I took Dobromir into personal query.
I told him to calm down and that we should just leave this matter and I told him again, that I just wanted to know if we have clean war and fair gaming. again I didn't say that I knew sth, since I felt that it was his part to come towards me with such an information.
His response was (this is no 1 to 1 exact wording, but I remember it like yesterday): I apologize for what I said, also I want to say that I play with no OOC people I know this game Bam.
Now I had to weigh this apology. Obviously the second part was a lie. Does that mean that the apology was sincere? I couldn't know. The trust was broken and the respect was gone from my side at this moment. And I honestly I didn't care anymore to get deeper into this, as it was not my business to find out if they are together or not. But I saw it as my business as reponsible player to find out if they were cheating.
I then consulted those who I already mentioned and then filed the report. This is where everything started. And to conlude with the part that i already told the Titans: The lying in my face might be protecting the privacy (although he told others) and that is ok but the OOC harassment and insulting is also no acceptable thing. However, I could even overlook this insulting, but I can't overlook if he OOC cheats as some players suspect. That's why I filed this complaint so we have a decision by an independent court on this.

When the Titan verdict was done, I abided by it, even though they told me, as Ays correctly stated, that the accounts are linked. I also informed of this verdict the (already listed) people I had told to.
I apologize if this led later to rumours and I fully understand that this is bad, but seriously, from my side, there was never the intention to do so. This you must believe. It may have not been in my hands anymore, have you ever thought of this possibility? And I tried hard to let it not come so far. I had talked to you before the verdict and I always tried to solve this between players first. However, still I apologize for the inconvenience - without but, when, if or similar.

This whole section is completely bogus.  I was angry at first because I wasnt sure who was spreading the rumors.  This whole section is completely irrelevant and false and I said nothing of the sort.  Either way it has nothing to do with the case.  This is getting very sad.

[Lavigna]

I believe this thread must get locked. As far as it concerns the case evidence is already brought up  and the case is already under the voting procedure for a verdict.

More posts only bring more drama ,more bickering and make things worse for both parties involved. It has nothing to contribute to the case only extend the amount of bickering.

If there is no intention for the parties to solve this matter between them  and wait for the verdict then i don't see the reason for this discussion to continue.

[Geronus]

A verdict has been reached, and IG enforcement actions have been taken. For anyone who desires to cite this case in the future, the final verdict is:

"After consideration, the Magistrates find the defendant guilty of violating the Social Contract. The evidence and testimony provided point to a disturbing pattern of behavior wherein the defendant repeatedly used OOC avenues of communication to suggest that two other players were cheating, power-gaming or otherwise doing something unethical. Moreover, the defendant also spread rumors about the two players' personal lives in the process while clearly implying that there was something sordid or improper about their behavior. Although the defendant did not make such accusations publicly, the fact that he saw fit to do so privately on multiple occasions and with multiple other players gives this entire episode the character of a subtle campaign of harassment and slander. We believe that this was, in fact, the intended effect of the defendant's actions. This case in many ways epitomizes why the Social Contract forbids publicly accusing others of cheating without proof. The damage such accusations can do to affected players and the atmosphere of the game itself is insidious and not easily countered.

We believe that this behavior has been driven by the defendant's competitive nature. While we recognize that Battlemaster is inherently a PvP game, we also expect the competition to remain friendly at all times. When competitiveness compels a player to cross this line and begin harassing another player in an effort to gain IG advantages, we must intervene and we feel that a strong message is necessary in this case. This situation appears to have been largely driven by an IG conflict between Perdan, ruled by the defendant, and Eponlynn and Caligus, ruled by the players who were his targets. As such, we have determined that we will strip the defendant's titles in Perdan and bar him from regaining them for a period of 1 month. This enforced break from the burdens of being a Ruler is made so that the pressures that have led to this behavior are removed from the picture. In addition, his account will be locked for 3 days, time which we hope will be used by the defendant to take a step back and consider how he might change his behavior in the future.

Magistrates voted 8-0 in favor of a guilty verdict, with 1 vote for stripping the defendant's titles, 5 votes for stripping his titles and applying a 3-day lock, and 2 votes for stripping his titles and applying a 7-day lock.

This thread will remain open for any questions regarding the case.

[Atanamir]

Dear Magistrates,

first of all, thank you all for the time and effort you have put into this case, I am sure it was not one of your easier ones.
I fully abide by your verdict, I would be a hypocrite to not accept it, since the justice which ruled upon me, is also the justice I entrusted when I filed my complaint in against the accusant. Titans, Magistrates, no matter who it is, I believe you do what is best for this game.
So I abide by your verdict as I always have done till now and repent for the actions in which I have been found guilty.

Second, and most important of all, I want to apologize once more to the two harmed players Jason and Laura and hope that they see the verdict given to me as a just one and I hope that they see this case now as closed as I do.
We shall move forward and even if we might not be the best friends in the future, I certainly hope that I can play at a normal level with hopefully both players in the future again.

I thank you all for your time and I hope that everyone can return hopefully to normal levels now and enjoy this great game.
I will in contrary enjoy a 3 days break and redefine my stance, as the magistrates suggest to me.

Best,
Alexandros aka Atanamir

[Stue (DC)]

the last time i remember to report someone for repeatedly accusing someone else for cheating through ooc messages, which would be much heavier misconduct that doing it via irc, the one is "punished" by private warning, and now this, such a severe punishment?!

it is particularly annoying that magistrates are making the case out of some unsportish crying from guy who obviously did not learn losing ig.

i feel this guy atanamir is punished for making some achievements in-game, which is almost blasphemy in current bm situation, where meta-gaming, power-gaming and occ clanning covered almost everything.

this is a shame.

[Anaris]

the last time i remember to report someone for repeatedly accusing someone else for cheating through ooc messages, which would be much heavier misconduct that doing it via irc, the one is "punished" by private warning, and now this, such a severe punishment?!

Just because it's a more obvious violation of the Social Contract doesn't mean it's a more serious violation.

What Atanamir did here was one of the worst things you can do to someone in BattleMaster, and has resulted in at least one player leaving the game.