OOC reasons taken for baning charracter from the realm

[BattleMaster Server]

Summary:	OOC reasons taken for baning charracter from the realm
Violation:	OOC reasons taken for baning charracter from the realm
World:	Colonies
Complainer:	Tomislav
About:	Ares

Full Complaint Text:
I OOC refered on IR #1 when King and General pointed nobles for not moving:

"Everyone can play this game according to his personal rhythm, and if you can't deal with that then step down."


Player of King OOC answered:

Quote

"... and OOC besmirching  and reference to "stepping down" is out of line and an obvious ploy to seed malcontent due no doubt to the removal of his other character....not gonna float that boat around here my friend....happy trails : )"

That "besmirching" he is mentioning is quoting of IR #1.


(first part was about my charracter's ingame critics...)

OOC reasons were taken for baning my charracter from the realm.

[Geronus]

I thought I was fairly clear that there wasn't much of a case here. Which rule are you claiming has been violated? The activity IR? Or something else?

Please also provide additional context. The full exchange of messages leading up to the ban would be helpful.

[Indirik]

The complete, unedited text of all relevant message is important to these cases. That includes the relevant messages from both parties. Also, the complete, unedited text of the ban message, and any related messages from the judge.

[T0mislav]

Unfortunately I do not have many posts that show attitude thoward those who do not move (I posted the last post to show how those posts look like)... insight in those posts had my charracter Crixus who was General of the realm and who was exiled because of disagreement with the King (I posted 1st report to show he left the continent). Reason of my OOC on Marshal's report was not Marshals report (it is simple statement that movement is failed) but is attitude of Government thoward those who did not move that Crixus had insight in (Crixus had access to message groups Lucius do not have, but duo to threads posted there contained some statements that could be interpreted as violation of IR I commented it OOC from Lucius' charracter after Crixus left the Continent).

What I am reporting is player's of King OOC that insults IR calling the part of IR #1 I refered on "besmirching" and the fact that he considered my OOC when ordering Judge to ban my charracter Lucius.


Posts:

Noble has left   (2 days, 3 hours ago)
Crixus Domitius, Knight of Wetham was seen in Portion, boarding a ship to Dwilight.
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Report from Sadi SaDiablo   (1 day, 18 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (38 recipients)
Failed movement again   Seriously how do you expect to win any battles if you do not move

Sadi SaDiablo
Knight of Frundi
Marshal of Northern Horde
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Report from Lucius Domitius   (15 hours, 15 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (38 recipients)
This was another premature attack just like Crixus was suggesting it is.

If you lose 5 large battles in a row because of Nobles are not moving on time, it would be reasonable that you start taking the fact that many Nobles are not moving on time and start calculating it in your battle plans like Crixus did (ooc. because there is no way to force anyone to move on time... rule no.1 clearly states that nobles have right to be inactive whenever they want for how long they want and how often they want and if leaders can not accept it they are welcome to step down)... or you can continue wasting army after army ramming them into supperior enemy force and then put blames for defeat on those who did not move.

Lucius Domitius
Priest of Horde of Honor
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Out-of-Character from Ares Reaver   (7 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (38 recipients)
There is no problem if people aren't able to log in from time to time and move, we all have lives...

There is a problem when someone is always asking for gold to recruit, and NEVER moving when there is a battle...as is the case with Nipples.....we have been watching her moves for a while now and have noted that she misses every battle we are involved in, there is nothing wrong whatsoever in calling that out.... especially when said person is always looking for gold for troops to fight with.

Lucius' IC blurb about Crixus knowing better (what a joke) and OOC besmirching  and reference to "stepping down" is out of line and an obvious ploy to seed malcontent due no doubt to the removal of his other character....not gonna float that boat around here my friend....happy trails : )

Rick Damon
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Report from Cathal Dubhaine   (4 hours, 52 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (38 recipients)

...

I'm extremely disappointed that Lord Thian and Dame Nipples failed to join the attack as their troops would have softened the outcome and possibly delivered the extra punch we needed to break the TO. I've written to both to seek an explanation for their lack-lustre performance in recent weeks and if there's good reason I'll find them duties where their contribution will further our cause.

Cathal Dubhaine
General of Lukon
Knight of Corali Forest
Marshal of Army of the Black Ravens
Knight of Corali Forest
Marshal of Army of the Black Ravens

[^ban^]

For those interested, the Inalienable Rights are not shields to hide behind and using them as such (as appears to be what this argument leads to) has historically resulted in very harsh punishment.

[Geronus]

So are you complaining that the Inalienable Right to choose one's own activity level is being violated on behalf of Nipple and Thiann? Or is this about your ban?

[Indirik]

I thought this case was about the ban. We need evidence and information about the ban. Messages about IRs and inactivity have nothing to do with this case. Where is the message about someone being banned?

[T0mislav]

To be precise completely:

I am reporting bold/underline part of OOC statement:

Out-of-Character from Ares Reaver   (7 hours, 32 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (38 recipients)
There is no problem if people aren't able to log in from time to time and move, we all have lives...

There is a problem when someone is always asking for gold to recruit, and NEVER moving when there is a battle...as is the case with Nipples.....we have been watching her moves for a while now and have noted that she misses every battle we are involved in, there is nothing wrong whatsoever in calling that out.... especially when said person is always looking for gold for troops to fight with.

Lucius' IC blurb about Crixus knowing better (what a joke) and OOC besmirching  and reference to "stepping down" is out of line and an obvious ploy to seed malcontent due no doubt to the removal of his other character....not gonna float that boat around here my friend....happy trails : )

Rick Damon

This part states that my OOC is considered for IC ban of my charracter, what is against the rule.
He clearly states that my OOC contributed to cross the line for my charracters IC ban.

I do not expect my ban to be removed.
Please notice that I am not reporting player of Judge who baned my charracter, but player of King who ordered the ban on OOC reasons inclooded.

[Draco Tanos]

or you can continue wasting army after army ramming them into supperior enemy force and then put blames for defeat on those who did not move.

Seems like an IC reason to pin you with disrespect.  And banish you if it is common enough.  For some reason, I have a feeling it was common.

[T0mislav]

Lucius' IC messages that could result with ban (like one quoted in previous post) have been sent after he got instruction from the Judge that King wish him to leave the realm.

I have very long history with him and I am reporting this exactly because I am sure that OOC reason that I am player of both Lucius and Crixus is the primary reason for ban of Lucius.

After Crixus had conflict with the King, Lucius got the message from the Judge, within the day when Crixus was exiled by the King, that stated that King said him to ask Lucius to also leave the realm.

This is not the first time it is happening... few years ago when he baned Lucius for disagreement with him, he also asked my other charracter Markus to leave the realm as well.

This is how he is acting.

It is forbiden by the rules to ban someone from the realm simply because he has family member in enemy realm.
Is it ok then to ban someone from the realm just because his other charracter is baned from the realm?
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I see no difference - both cases can be interpreted as: "You are unvelcome here as well as your cousin." or "You are enemy of the realm same way your cousin is." - So why would one case be forbidden and the other permited?

[Indirik]

Do you have any messages that would indicate that your assertion is true? Messages that you have from the ruler stating that your character is to be banned because of your OOC message? A message from the judge stating that the ruler asked for your character to be banned? Right now all you have is one OOC from the ruler, which I agree is a little rude, but I don't know the whole story here. I can see how your original OOC message could be considered rude, especially if someone was not aware that you were copying the text straight from the government rules page.

Really, in order to press your case, you are going to need more evidence of the ruler's intentions and involvement beyond your claims. The reason for your character's ban on your family page is: "Banned from Lukon by Lucivar SaDiablo.
Reason: for causing trouble by being an open critic and insulting the nobles of Lukon" Is it not possible that your character was banned for precisely that reason?

[Draco Tanos]

This entire case seems like sour grapes. :/

[T0mislav]

Messages that you have from the ruler stating that your character is to be banned because of your OOC message?

My message:

Report from Lucius Domitius   (1 day ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (38 recipients)
This was another premature attack just like Crixus was suggesting it is.

If you lose 5 large battles in a row because of Nobles are not moving on time, it would be reasonable that you start taking the fact that many Nobles are not moving on time and start calculating it in your battle plans like Crixus did (ooc. because there is no way to force anyone to move on time... rule no.1 clearly states that nobles have right to be inactive whenever they want for how long they want and how often they want and if leaders can not accept it they are welcome to step down)... or you can continue wasting army after army ramming them into supperior enemy force and then put blames for defeat on those who did not move.

Lucius Domitius
Priest of Horde of Honor

- Notice that bold part of my message is OOC and is refering on Government #1 Rule, underline part:

The #1 Rule

Being able to be inactive at any time, for reasons he doesn't have to disclose, with no prior warning or excuse, is the one holy right of every BattleMaster player. Anyone so much as touching it will feel my unrestrained wrath. --Tom 20:46, 15 May 2006 (CEST)

All our players are free to play when and how often they like. Do not order them to log on at a specific time, or at certain intervals, especially not "every turn" or "one hour before each turn". This isn't limited to just orders, it also covers getting mad at people or "encouraging" them. Everyone can play this game according to his personal rhythm, and if you can't deal with that then step down. The game already does take care of players going inactive without properly deleting their characters, there is no need to kick or ban them, and it is usually not advantageous to do so.

This also doesn't mean you can't work with the people. Advising or asking players to notify their marshal, liege or the general when they go away for multiple days is a perfectly reasonable request. It is not ok to punish them for failing to do so, however. Real life always has priority and often makes it impossible to send a message, or simply not important enough. Never forget that this is just a game.

- Player of the kings answered on OOC part:

Out-of-Character from Ares Reaver   (16 hours, 44 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (38 recipients)
There is no problem if people aren't able to log in from time to time and move, we all have lives...

There is a problem when someone is always asking for gold to recruit, and NEVER moving when there is a battle...as is the case with Nipples.....we have been watching her moves for a while now and have noted that she misses every battle we are involved in, there is nothing wrong whatsoever in calling that out.... especially when said person is always looking for gold for troops to fight with.

Lucius' IC blurb about Crixus knowing better (what a joke) and OOC besmirching  and reference to "stepping down" is out of line and an obvious ploy to seed malcontent due no doubt to the removal of his other character....not gonna float that boat around here my friend....happy trails : )

Rick Damon

- Notice that bold underline part of player's of king OOC, which is about steping down, referes on underline part of my OOC that quotes underline part of Government Rule #1
- Notice that further in player's of king OOC he is directly saying that my OOC is out of line and together with stated IC is reason for ban - this way he is directly OOC saying that OOC quoting of rules is out of line and is reason for ban

In previous post was question:

The reason for your character's ban on your family page is: "Banned from Lukon by Lucivar SaDiablo.
Reason: for causing trouble by being an open critic and insulting the nobles of Lukon" Is it not possible that your character was banned for precisely that reason?

The problem is that part "causing trouble by being an open critic" includes not only IC but also my OOC publical quoting of rules what player of king is interpreteting as "insulting nobles" = insulting him by "sabotaging" his effots to enforce better efficiency by publical informing players about rules.

IR Activity rule starts with:

Some hardcore players worry about something they call "activity".

Player of king and players of Marshals influenced by him are constantly blaming "activity" for all fails on the battlefield.
I was simply tired of it, and I started publical talking against such attitude what resulted with exile of one of my charracter and ban of the other.

If player of ruler is free to imply that OOC quoting of rules can be reason for ban, then it is all good, and I have no further complaints about the matter.

[Draco Tanos]

Failed movement again   Seriously how do you expect to win any battles if you do not move

Sadi SaDiablo
Knight of Frundi
Marshal of Northern Horde

This is what seemingly started all of this, as per what you have posted.  It is a marshal lamenting that people are not following orders and moving with the army.  That is not against the IR.  That is not a protected right. 

The fact that you brought up the IR while saying how much better your character was to me implies a veiled threat, trying to use the IRs as a shield.

No, the ruler didn't like your OOC comment, but your IC comments were equally out of line in a monarchy.

Be happy it's harder to simply grab you and execute your character than it was historically.

[T0mislav]

No, that message was not started all... it started much earlier and Crixus was exiled already few days before it - he left the continent shortly after.
It all started a week before with preparation for that move, but unfortunately I do not have those threads duo to I lost them with emigrating Crixus.

The fact that you brought up the IR while saying how much better your character was to me implies a veiled threat, trying to use the IRs as a shield.

At the time when I was saying it, my other charracter was already exiled and the charracter that was saying it was already asked to leave, so that was definitly not reason for ban.

As I said, unfortunately threads about activity had my other charracter that was General and duo to it he had access to message groups that baned charracter do not have, so those posts are lost duo to exiled charracter left the continent.

My other charracter got exiled because of the IC/OOC conflict with player of the king, and the baned charracter is only colateral damage because I am playing him - OOC reasons only - all IC messages he posted that could result with ban have been posted after he was already asked to leave.