"Too Much Peace" Revisited

[Buffalkill]

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

How dare you explain !@#$ better than me!  ;)


Kidding. Somebody obviously knows what he's talking about.

[Sacha]

I don't think so, because the people who look at it the most will be those who are inside the realm, who care about making the realm fun, such as the rulers and those in leadership positions.

Most, especially in already 'boring' realms will vote to make their realm win.

[Tom]

Most, especially in already 'boring' realms will vote to make their realm win.

Thus attracting people who are then pissed at them because they expected a fun realm and got a boring one, and will express that in their votes.

[Foxglove]

I'm still not a fan of this idea at all. I just don't see it working. Also, like I said a few days ago, we already have a mechanism to address players finding a realm boring - they can move their character somewhere else. Anaris said a while back that people don't move from realms they find boring, so why is that the fault of anyone else apart from the particular player? Like I said in my first post, them making a boredom vote would simply mean, "I'm bored, other players should do something to make the game more interesting for me". Rather than, "I'm bored, I should do something to make the game more interesting for myself".

I just can't get my head around the idea of why players are going to vote to say their own realm is boring and possibly bring down negative effects (if implemented), rather than trying to make the realm more interesting themselves or moving. It just seems like a mechanic to please the lazy. Or for those who would join a realm to have a voting tool to damage a realm they dislike or have some grudge against.

I also remember that a while ago people were complaining about government elections being too frequent and they were getting voting fatigue. So then we introduce a new OOC boredom vote mechanism for them to further complain about? I truly don't think people will bother voting. If this idea is insisted upon, the boredom guage should default to the highest "satisfied" end of the rating scale, making people have to actively choose to lower their vote. Even then deciding on frequency of voting will be hellishly difficult. This is particularly true if any sort of negative effects apply to realm or characters.

I really think that this whole idea is barking up the wrong the tree.

Afterthought - on further reflection, the only outside possibility I can see of a boredom vote being useful in any way is if players are asked to vote on the state of their entire island. The question would be something like, "Do you find this island boring?". Then it's on the entire player base of an island to make it more interesting. Lack of wars is normally because a number of realms want to maintain the status quo, so make it an island-wide issue, rather than blaming single realms.

[Anaris]

I'm still not a fan of this idea at all. I just don't see it working.

In its original form, the worst possible case is that we get useless data. The most likely bad result is simply insufficient data.

Also, like I said a few days ago, we already have a mechanism to address players finding a realm boring - they can move their character somewhere else. Anaris said a while back that people don't move from realms they find boring, so why is that the fault of anyone else apart from the particular player?

Well, that's easy for you to say. It's my job to think about their fun as well, though.

I also remember that a while ago people were complaining about government elections being too frequent and they were getting voting fatigue. So then we introduce a new OOC boredom vote mechanism for them to further complain about? I truly don't think people will bother voting.

Apples and oranges.

This mechanic will not send you messages reminding you to vote every month, there will not be candidates or campaigns...in general, it won't look much like voting at all. It will be rating. There will be a page you can go to where you can set your realm's "fun rating". If you don't want to bother, you can just never ever go there, and no one will know or care. (Unless everyone decides that, in which see the beginning of this post.)

[vonGenf]

If this idea is insisted upon, the boredom guage should default to the highest "satisfied" end of the rating scale, making people have to actively choose to lower their vote.

I think this is a good idea, better than the inverse. The one (minor) issue I could have with such a system would be to see "Rate the realm better so we can attract new players!1!!1!!" OOC campaigns. If the default is set at the maximum, all these campaigns would achieve would be to get the jaded to look at a system they had never considered before - and possibly lower their vote. If the default is at an average or low level, then you will see OOC peer pressure being applied to new players to increase their vote rapidly rather than IC interaction, especially for new players.

[Anaris]

I think this is a good idea, better than the inverse. The one (minor) issue I could have with such a system would be to see "Rate the realm better so we can attract new players!1!!1!!" OOC campaigns. If the default is set at the maximum, all these campaigns would achieve would be to get the jaded to look at a system they had never considered before - and possibly lower their vote. If the default is at an average or low level, then you will see OOC peer pressure being applied to new players to increase their vote rapidly rather than IC interaction, especially for new players.

I don't see there being any reason to have a default at all.

[Buffalkill]

we already have a mechanism to address players finding a realm boring - they can move their character somewhere else. Anaris said a while back that people don't move from realms they find boring, so why is that the fault of anyone else apart from the particular player?

I think there's probably some truth that players are reluctant to move out of their realm because they feel some attachment to it as part of their char's identity. For them, leaving a realm would probably be a last resort. They won't pick up and leave at the first sign of boredom, but a negative shift in player ratings could serve as an early warning. If I'm sick of my realm, I may not leave it today or tomorrow, but I'll express my dissatisfaction through the rating system. If, say, in a month or two I still don't like it, maybe then I'll move.

[Foxglove]

Well, that's easy for you to say. It's my job to think about their fun as well, though

Fair point. Although I don't see how you're going to increase the fun of players who essentially aren't doing anything to help themselves. If there are people who are bored but aren't plotting, rebelling, trying to start a war, actively in a war, looking for a more interesting realm, or experimenting with classes, it seems like they're not really even using the existing features of the game. Perhaps they're bored of the game, rather than a particular realm?

The point Buffalkill just made is a good one too, although that's also a major cause of boredom. For example, a duke in a 30 region realm who's bored but feels the identity of his character won't let him leave or make a secession, and he also doesn't want to lose his title and all that lovely gold.

I think it was Anaris who also said a while back that realms can be in a war and still be as boring as hell. I think that's another good point, and also suggests why a boredom guage would be essentially pointless. A blanket "I'm bored" vote can conceal far too much to get any meaningful outcome - "I'm bored because we're not at war". "I'm bored because we're in the wrong war". "I'm bored because we're losing the war, sitting in the capital, and the enemy won't make peace." "I'm bored, but I don't want to lose my lordship, so I'm not moving". Or even, "I'm bored of the game, but habit keeps me logging in".

You get the picture... there are so many possibilities concealed in a simple "I'm bored" vote that it will make any data collected meaningless and virtually impossible to interpret. It's completely possible that a realm is voted boring, so the ruler starts a war, and then the realm is still voted boring during the war. Or visa versa if the realm is in a war and then moves to peace.

But if the reformed version of this idea is simply to use it as a consequence-free tool for Devs to collect vague information on where new features (for example) could be implemented to increase enjoyment during certain cycles of gameplay, then fair enough. As a tool for rulers or players, it's pointless because the data that would be collected wouldn't be specific enough.

[Tom]

I don't see there being any reason to have a default at all.

I do. Ratings are temporary. People will forget about them.

If we make 3 the default value, we can simple move all votes towards that, slowly. Like, say, 0.1 points per week. So if someone rates his realm a 5, that'll last for 20 weeks or so.

People WILL forget to update their ratings.

The other alternative is to keep track of the age and weigh the ratings by age.

[Anaris]

I do. Ratings are temporary. People will forget about them.

If we make 3 the default value, we can simple move all votes towards that, slowly. Like, say, 0.1 points per week. So if someone rates his realm a 5, that'll last for 20 weeks or so.

People WILL forget to update their ratings.

The other alternative is to keep track of the age and weigh the ratings by age.

The latter was more what I was thinking—don't fade toward a default, fade toward no rating at all.

But the former could work, too.

[Indirik]

I just can't get my head around the idea of why players are going to vote to say their own realm is boring

There have been a few notable times when I would have used this mechanic to vote a realm as boring. Two, maybe three times, tops, in the past 7.5 years. I think quite a few of my votes would have been a "meh".

Note that I'm still not convinced this is a good idea that will actually do anything, but so long as it doesn't actually carry any IC/IG penalties, I don't see the harm in trying it.

and possibly bring down negative effects (if implemented), rather than trying to make the realm more interesting themselves or moving.

There are times when you try to make the change, and you just can't do it. Too much inertia. Too much power ossification among the ranks. Too much apathy.

Or for those who would join a realm to have a voting tool to damage a realm they dislike or have some grudge against.

Abuse is possible, if there is any actual IC/IG penalty associated with the rating. I assume it would take a concerted effort by several characters to make it possible. And then at that point, you'd have to just assume that they would have enough people to actually make a significant change in the realm, and possibly take control anyway. If there are no IC/IG penalties, then you'd have to assume that they the possible abusers would have to be very incompetent, and ineffectual, griefers.

[Tom]

I'm a bit into statistics, so here's what my thought is on how this should play out.

Do it the same way Amazon is doing it. Display an average in the overview, and then the number of votes for each rating in a bar graph. This will quickly reveal ballot stuffing and give interested players a very good impression. If some people think the realm is great and some think it sucks, it's likely that the realm is being controlled by a group of players who are having all the fun. If votes are distributed evenly, it's more egalitarian.

In most of the statistics I have done publicly, I have always insisted on publishing the actual numbers in addition to averages.

[Buffalkill]

Abuse is possible, if there is any actual IC/IG penalty associated with the rating. I assume it would take a concerted effort by several characters to make it possible. And then at that point, you'd have to just assume that they would have enough people to actually make a significant change in the realm, and possibly take control anyway. If there are no IC/IG penalties, then you'd have to assume that they the possible abusers would have to be very incompetent, and ineffectual, griefers.

Very unlikely. It implies a level of cooperation that griefers are incapable of. And way too much effort with no payoff. You'd need a lot of co-conspirators because each vote by itself is a drop in the bucket. There'd be nothing for them to gain, and everyone would know what they were up to. Think about it, if your realm is consistently at around 4.5/5 and then, out of the blue, 20 chars from Realm B join up and the score drops to 3/5, you don't need to be a detective. If that actually happens, give them a nice little 'slow clap' and say, "Congratulations guys, you went to all that trouble to move the needle a little bit. You're now officially oxygen thieves. Do you like apples?" Then, give them a knee to the groin and say, "How do you like them apples?" You'll be having so much fun that the metre will immediately go up to 6/5 and then shatter in a beautiful explosion that covers you in glittery stardust.

[Sacha]

Very unlikely. It implies a level of cooperation that griefers are incapable of.

Have you met some of the griefers we've had over the years?