"Too Much Peace" Revisited

[Foxglove]

Not a fan of this idea at all.

There are a huge number of problems with it, particularly if it applied negative impacts on governments, rulers or realms.

So we give players a button to say they find their realm boring. Who's to say that isn't partially their own fault? You can't lay everything on the rulers. It's an invitation for players to say, "I'm bored, you do something to make it interesting for me". Rather than, "I'm bored, what can I do to make this realm more interesting for us all?". Fair enough, being a ruler places a greater responsibility on a player to try to make things entertaining, but things are often beyond the control of one player to change.

Which brings me to the second point. Players in realm A press the 'Boring, boring, boring' button. So the ruler does what s/he can to start a war. The rulers of their allies in realms B and C take a look at what their own players are saying and find they are content with the status quo. Realm A is forced into a suicidal war without allied support.

Heck, we could start with it having no IG effect at all beyond information—let the ruler and general know, and send the information to the dev team, as well, so we can get an overview of which realms are considered significantly boring.

If we see that some realms have a high percentage of players who think they're boring, then we can implement some kind of relatively slow-ramping negative effects.

I really don't think siccing the Dev team on a realm would be a good idea. Isn't that the sort of intervention that's always been avoided? Also, would players really be so foolish as to do something that would bring down negative effects on the realm they're playing in? Rather than... you know... talking to the leadership, stirring up internal dissent, or just leaving to find a realm they consider more interesting?

And that's really what it boils down to. If players find the realm boring and are dissatisfied we already have a mechanism to address that - pack your bags and move somewhere else. The only reason for them to stay in the realm and also say it's boring is so they can keep a title or some other perk while blaming someone else.

Sorry if that comes across as a harsh criticism, but it reflects how much I dislike this idea.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Not a fan of this idea at all.

There are a huge number of problems with it, particularly if it applied negative impacts on governments, rulers or realms.

So we give players a button to say they find their realm boring. Who's to say that isn't partially their own fault? You can't lay everything on the rulers. It's an invitation for players to say, "I'm bored, you do something to make it interesting for me". Rather than, "I'm bored, what can I do to make this realm more interesting for us all?". Fair enough, being a ruler places a greater responsibility on a player to try to make things entertaining, but things are often beyond the control of one player to change.

Which brings me to the second point. Players in realm A press the 'Boring, boring, boring' button. So the ruler does what s/he can to start a war. The rulers of their allies in realms B and C take a look at what their own players are saying and find they are content with the status quo. Realm A is forced into a suicidal war without allied support.

I really don't think siccing the Dev team on a realm would be a good idea. Isn't that the sort of intervention that's always been avoided? Also, would players really be so foolish as to do something that would bring down negative effects on the realm they're playing in? Rather than... you know... talking to the leadership, stirring up internal dissent, or just leaving to find a realm they consider more interesting?

And that's really what it boils down to. If players find the realm boring and are dissatisfied we already have a mechanism to address that - pack your bags and move somewhere else. The only reason for them to stay in the realm and also say it's boring is so they can keep a title or some other perk while blaming someone else.

Sorry if that comes across as a harsh criticism, but it reflects how much I dislike this idea.

I feel the same way Foxglove does about this, but couldn't think of how to say it.

[Buffalkill]

I feel the same way Foxglove does about this, but couldn't think of how to say it.

I agree with Gustav & Foxglove, but I think the idea has some merit. I'd be interested in your feedback on this feature request, which I think addresses the central issue of this thread as well as the problems your both raised. http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5069.0.html

[Indirik]

Having thought about this idea for a while, I have to say that I don't like it. Way too easy to abuse.

[Dishman]

It seems unnecessary to add an additional protest option. If you want war, and the realm ruler/general says no...publicly protest and try to get them out of office. If the realm is behind you, then more people will protest...if not, then they are having fun in peace or can't feasibly go to war. Adding anonymous "no fun" buttons just adds potential griefers, less interaction between characters, and more OOC distractions.

The first recourse for being bored in your realm is to talk to your realm-mates. If there is no fun to be had there, then finding some adversary is a good way (typically war, but there is plenty of fun in schemes and RP rivalry). If no one is willing to reciprocate anything fun (council refuses war, everyone is happy sitting in their regions playing with themselves), then it's time to pack up and go on a journey for greener pastures.

Boring realms will notice themselves shrink and eventually be eaten by interesting realms. Realms split in the middle with people wanting interesting things to happen and people happy with the status quot will go into civil war. A kind of 'natural order' is needed in the game....not a "I'm not having fun but I don't want to lose my fat Dukedom" button.

[Vellos]

Thoughts (only skimmed the thread):
1. Make purely informational at first. Eventually phase in as exclusively personal: don't punish a realm (TMP revealed that doesn't work well), punish the people. In a boring realm, make council members and dukes take H/P hits.

2. Don't make it a cast-your-votes kind of thing. Make it a static rating, so everyone "votes" automatically, they can just change their vote: this makes it hard for a small number of griefers to spam the system. If three out of 30 people are bored, they shouldn't be able to use this mechanic to their advantage (because 27 people aren't bored...)

3. Make the game text absolutely crystal clear: i.e. don't mix IC and OOC. If it's intended to be an OOC mechanic, put the mechanic in the gray background with a giant freaking "OOC USE ONLY" warning on it. Or else be ready for ambiguity and abuse a la the vulgarity system.

4. Be prepared for misuse. I give it 3 days before it is used as a protest system. Players will coordinate boredom votes with protests, even if their protest movement is actually making the realm less boring, they'll bump up boredom votes. I would suggest something as simple as, "If you protest, your boredom vote immediately changes to 'I love this realm and am not bored at all.' " Because otherwise there's a perverse incentive to misreport your opinions. If you're engaged in an active protest to remove a sitting ruler, you're not bored. Maybe you're protesting because you WERE bored, but you aren't anymore, so your vote SHOULD change (PS- this would give rulers of bored realms incentives to PROVOKE protest and conflict, which is good for the game!)

[Anaris]

4. Be prepared for misuse. I give it 3 days before it is used as a protest system. Players will coordinate boredom votes with protests, even if their protest movement is actually making the realm less boring, they'll bump up boredom votes. I would suggest something as simple as, "If you protest, your boredom vote immediately changes to 'I love this realm and am not bored at all.' " Because otherwise there's a perverse incentive to misreport your opinions. If you're engaged in an active protest to remove a sitting ruler, you're not bored. Maybe you're protesting because you WERE bored, but you aren't anymore, so your vote SHOULD change (PS- this would give rulers of bored realms incentives to PROVOKE protest and conflict, which is good for the game!)

I've got a simpler solution to this, which will also address short-term fluctuations in how boring a realm is:

The ratings never take effect immediately. Rather, they phase in over a period of, say, two weeks.

[Vellos]

I've got a simpler solution to this, which will also address short-term fluctuations in how boring a realm is:

The ratings never take effect immediately. Rather, they phase in over a period of, say, two weeks.

Hmmm....

No....that means if a ruler does fix things, he still gets two weeks of punishment.

Changes to indicate increasing boredom should have a time delay: changes to indicate improvement should be immediate. So if you're a ruler and you see you're getting unpopular, you can fix it fast.

Alternatively, give "zero-time-delay" values for informational purposes, but make game mechanics use time-delayed values.

Overall though I still just think that we would need a very, very clear set of norms and rules on how the feature is intended to be used.

[Anaris]

Hmmm....

No....that means if a ruler does fix things, he still gets two weeks of punishment.

Changes to indicate increasing boredom should have a time delay: changes to indicate improvement should be immediate. So if you're a ruler and you see you're getting unpopular, you can fix it fast.

That would work.

Alternatively, give "zero-time-delay" values for informational purposes, but make game mechanics use time-delayed values.

Overall though I still just think that we would need a very, very clear set of norms and rules on how the feature is intended to be used.

Norms and rules are all very well, but they rarely survive first contact with subtle griefers.

[Tom]

Tim is on the right track.

Negative votes should "ramp up" over time, to create a time-delay effect, while positive votes count immediately. That way, if the realm stays boring for a while, punishments start to creep in, and increase, but as soon as it changes, everything goes back to normal.

[Buffalkill]

I've got a simpler solution to this, which will also address short-term fluctuations in how boring a realm is:

The ratings never take effect immediately. Rather, they phase in over a period of, say, two weeks.

I don't think that's helpful or necessary, especially if this is an information tool. I understand you want to prevent people from making hasty inferences from a single data point, but let them. It would be unwise for them to do so, but that's on them. You don't always have to save people from their own mistakes, and most people are smart enough to understand that it's an opinion poll, players are human, and humans are whimsical. It would be subject to same vagaries as all statistical samples. Personally, the way I would look at it, a 1% move from one day to the next is negligible. However, if there's a 80% change, I'd like to know about it now because in 2 weeks it will probably be to late do anything.

[Indirik]

Trust me, the devs are not in the business of saving people from their own mistakes...

I do agree with Vellos in that we definitely need to be 100% certain that we differentiate that this is either an IC or an OOC thing, and take actions accordingly. Personally, I can't see how this could possibly be an IC thing. It only makes sense that it could be an OOC rating. And if so, giving H/P penalties is completely inappropriate, as they are IC character attributes. Giving IC penalties for an OOC mechanic is never a good thing.

[Buffalkill]

Trust me, the devs are not in the business of saving people from their own mistakes...

I do agree with Vellos in that we definitely need to be 100% certain that we differentiate that this is either an IC or an OOC thing, and take actions accordingly. Personally, I can't see how this could possibly be an IC thing. It only makes sense that it could be an OOC rating. And if so, giving H/P penalties is completely inappropriate, as they are IC character attributes. Giving IC penalties for an OOC mechanic is never a good thing.

Sorry, what's H/P? I may have said this already, but I don't think there should a built-in penalty for boredom. Realms should be allowed to be boring, and players are free to leave a realm whenever they choose. Some boredom is inevitable. Battles wouldn't be as exciting without some anticipation. If a realm decides to take a few weeks or months to build up their army, the boredom level will naturally increase, but for good reason. Let the players decide how much boredom they will tolerate, not some algorithm.

[vonGenf]

Sorry, what's H/P?

Honour and Prestige.

[Anaris]

Sorry, what's H/P? I may have said this already, but I don't think there should a built-in penalty for boredom. Realms should be allowed to be boring, and players are free to leave a realm whenever they choose. Some boredom is inevitable. Battles wouldn't be as exciting without some anticipation. If a realm decides to take a few weeks or months to build up their army, the boredom level will naturally increase, but for good reason. Let the players decide how much boredom they will tolerate, not some algorithm.

And if a realm has been at peace for a year or more? Or engaged in a war where all they ever do is march a week or two to the front, fight a battle, then march back, for months on end?

The point of this feature is exactly to let the players decide how much boredom they will tolerate.