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[Nosferatus]

That is very shaky logic. We have a Church of the Latter Day Saints. Do we also have a Church of the Earlier Day Saints? Nor does a simple name like Church of Humanity inherently suggest that all humans are ranked equal, any more then the fact that both peasants and nobles can be counted within the faithful.

I was more playing advocate of the devil here.
I personally believe it's alright and my characters wouldn't have any problems with it, perhaps only think of the name as weird.

We have a Church of the Latter Day Saints, Do we also have a Church of the Earlier Day Saints?
Stating the existence of later days means there are also earlier days and as there are always saints, then yes, if there are later day saints there obviously are earlier day saints

the name is just weird because a church would always be human.

[Bedwyr]

This may be a semantic/language issue...

Church of Humanity follows the same idea as, say, Church of Adghar or Church of Sartan, i.e., "Church of (what we believe in)".

[Indirik]

I'm curious as to how you define that as a "religion", as opposed to an order or something. Religions have generally been defined as an organization to venerate and/or worship a divine being or power, or group of such. I don't see as how the viewpoint of "all non-humans are evil and should be destroyed" quite fits the generally-accepted description of a religion. To whom/what do you pray?

[Meneldur]

I'm curious as to how you define that as a "religion", as opposed to an order or something. Religions have generally been defined as an organization to venerate and/or worship a divine being or power, or group of such. I don't see as how the viewpoint of "all non-humans are evil and should be destroyed" quite fits the generally-accepted description of a religion. To whom/what do you pray?

Indeed, I am skeptical of any "religion" that does not worship any divinities, particularly when we are supposed to be on a SMA island.

On that note does anyone know much about the new "Manifest Path" religion that just popped up? I looked on the wiki (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Manifest_Path) and apparently one of their central tenants is that "no faith should be put in anything non-human" which struck me as very anti-SMA considering it was a religion as well as Tom's words regarding atheism (although I suppose it could be debated whether it is atheistic or merely misotheistic). It doesn't seem to even have any kind of spiritual aspect at all, its goal simply to spread civilisation.

[Geronus]

I'm curious as to how you define that as a "religion", as opposed to an order or something. Religions have generally been defined as an organization to venerate and/or worship a divine being or power, or group of such. I don't see as how the viewpoint of "all non-humans are evil and should be destroyed" quite fits the generally-accepted description of a religion. To whom/what do you pray?

What about eastern religions like Buddhism? They don't pray to anyone in particular, though they might venerate particularly enlightened humans or practice ancestor worship. Not SMA? Because I would actually say that SA has distinctly eastern influences - the Stars are not exactly gods (as only rarely are they described as having a conscious will), they are simply inherently divine, much like natural objects or places can be considered to have divine aspects in Shinto. Much of what SA teaches about their influence on the lives of men and the need to balance their influences within oneself is evocative of aspects of Buddhism and Taoism both.

[Indirik]

What about eastern religions like Buddhism? They don't pray to anyone in particular, though they might venerate particularly enlightened humans or practice ancestor worship. Not SMA?

SMA is defined as distinctly European style, and does not include things like eastern philosophical religions, or other non-European models. That's why the Blood Cult never got started on Dwilight. Tom thought it was a good idea, and would even fit the BattleMaster mold in general, but that it was inappropriate for Dwilight as it did not fit his vision of SMA.

Because I would actually say that SA has distinctly eastern influences - the Stars are not exactly gods (as only rarely are they described as having a conscious will), they are simply inherently divine, much like natural objects or places can be considered to have divine aspects in Shinto. Much of what SA teaches about their influence on the lives of men and the need to balance their influences within oneself is evocative of aspects of Buddhism and Taoism both.

Sure. But Sanguis Astroism does have a set of "divine things/beings" to which the adherents pray, and from which they seek guidance.

[Bedwyr]

It is not atheism.  The Manifest Path acknowledges divine or infernal entities exist, as they quite obviously do and there is a great deal of evidence to support that.  It just doesn't trust them.

The easiest way I can think of putting it is to think of what the Norse religion would be like if they considered the Aesir and Vanir in the same light as the Jotun.  They know they exist, and that they are vastly more powerful than humans, but they don't like them and stand in opposition to them.

And again, this is leaving aside the Tyr-ist sect, which follows the Manifest Path as they believe it is a guide left by Tyr on how to live their lives.

[Geronus]

Sure. But Sanguis Astroism does have a set of "divine things/beings" to which the adherents pray, and from which they seek guidance.

I'm not sure I agree entirely. At a minimum, this is not clear within the belief structure of SA. Certainly people pray to the Stars and venerate them, but they have never been described as constructs that possess a distinct life and will of their own. At best we think of them as a source of wisdom and, occasionally, prophetic revelations about the future. However, unlike traditional Judeo-Christian or even European pagan religions, the entities that are venerated by SA are not personified in any way. They are more like a force of nature, akin to gravity or the changing of seasons. From them we draw wisdom, but are they gods or spirits even? Not really. They're more like the moon, with its changing phases and its supposed effects upon human behavior. If you ask me, SA doesn't have many roots in anything European beyond perhaps a very primitive form of sky-worship.

[fodder]

What about eastern religions like Buddhism? They don't pray to anyone in particular, though they might venerate particularly enlightened humans or practice ancestor worship. Not SMA? Because I would actually say that SA has distinctly eastern influences - the Stars are not exactly gods (as only rarely are they described as having a conscious will), they are simply inherently divine, much like natural objects or places can be considered to have divine aspects in Shinto. Much of what SA teaches about their influence on the lives of men and the need to balance their influences within oneself is evocative of aspects of Buddhism and Taoism both.

that's why buddhism chinese style or for that matter, japanese style (and presumably just about any style that is for the masses) has tons of big fat half dressed blokes as statues/busts/etc that those idiot peasants pray at. whether you class them as gods or demigods or something more akin to saints is another matter.

[Indirik]

I'm not sure I agree entirely. At a minimum, this is not clear within the belief structure of SA.

Not surprising. SA is so intentionally vague and imprecise, that you can interpret it many different ways.

Still, it contains several things that I feel are required to call yourself a religion:

* A belief in a specific set of supernatural forces/beings. These do not have to be personified "gods". They could be forces that are simply beyond the comprehension of mere mortals.
* A veneration and/or worship of these forces.
* A desire to spread the veneration/worship/influence of these forces.

If you don't have these things, then, IMHO, you're not a religion. That does not mean you're an atheist, or that you don't believe in a god/gods. It just means that you're not an organized religion, within the context of BattleMaster.

But as I said, that's just my opinion. YMMV.

[Laurens88]

and we still need more nobles 

[Chenier]

Not surprising. SA is so intentionally vague and imprecise, that you can interpret it many different ways.

Still, it contains several things that I feel are required to call yourself a religion:

* A belief in a specific set of supernatural forces/beings. These do not have to be personified "gods". They could be forces that are simply beyond the comprehension of mere mortals.
* A veneration and/or worship of these forces.
* A desire to spread the veneration/worship/influence of these forces.

If you don't have these things, then, IMHO, you're not a religion. That does not mean you're an atheist, or that you don't believe in a god/gods. It just means that you're not an organized religion, within the context of BattleMaster.

But as I said, that's just my opinion. YMMV.

I still think SA is too vague to be a truly authentic religion.

[De-Legro]

I still think SA is too vague to be a truly authentic religion.

Study the early Christan movements and then talk about vague. Before the all encompassing Catholic movement got going, they couldn't even agree on the nature of Christ, was he divine or was he not. If he was divine was he also human. Is he the messiah, what do we mean by messiah. Are we still Jewish, or are well called to form a new faith. When we think about religion we tend to think about very large institutionalised religion, the spectrum is much, much larger then that.

[Shizzle]

Study the early Christan movements and then talk about vague. Before the all encompassing Catholic movement got going, they couldn't even agree on the nature of Christ, was he divine or was he not. If he was divine was he also human. Is he the messiah, what do we mean by messiah. Are we still Jewish, or are well called to form a new faith. When we think about religion we tend to think about very large institutionalised religion, the spectrum is much, much larger then that.

All true, but that didn't happen in the MA

[Chenier]

Study the early Christan movements and then talk about vague. Before the all encompassing Catholic movement got going, they couldn't even agree on the nature of Christ, was he divine or was he not. If he was divine was he also human. Is he the messiah, what do we mean by messiah. Are we still Jewish, or are well called to form a new faith. When we think about religion we tend to think about very large institutionalised religion, the spectrum is much, much larger then that.

They at least has a set of teachings to work with, it was then about filling the gaps.

If you read SA's page, you read about how it's a belief that the stars *can* influence the behavior of people, that X *is said* about them, that they *appear* to be irregular...

I don't see anything resembling medieval western religions...