Author Topic: Hand out food  (Read 9968 times)

pcw27

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #15: October 31, 2013, 04:00:36 AM »
So you've made one person happy. Up until the point where the starving guy next to him knifes him to steal the Twinkie.

Personally, I don't think this is a viable mechanic. And I really don't think there's any way you can convince me otherwise.
And with this you've made the proposal way too complicated to implement for the minimal possible benefit this could be to the game.

Well history is on my side because this !@#$ happens a lot. There is a broad spectrum of starvation its not just "Perfectly Ok" or "SO HUNGRY I WILL STAB MY OWN MOTHER FOR A SINGLE SKITTLE!" logically in a starving region you have people running the gambit form dieing in the street to perfectly fine (after all nobles never starve).

Certainly you could get yourself a riot if you give food to the wrong person at the wrong time. Hell that could be a risk of the feature. However there is a very long history of conquering forces offering food, medicine, money and other life essentials to get the locals on their side.

Its viable up until the moment the thought of food drives the starving peasants into a frenzy. Twinkie man gets stabbed, Knife man eats and the rest wonder how much food you and your men have with you. They then descend upon your group, overwhelm it and the lucky ones get their heads bashed in and die quickly. The rest find themselves literally hacked and pulled into pieces before their bags are looted for food and then are eaten themselves.

Read "Night". That's not what happens. There's a gruesomely detailed account of how this exact scenario played out in the concentration camps. The Nazi guards would throw food to the prisoners for entertainment. The prisoners indeed started fighting to the death for the food. None of them even considered charging the heavily armed guards. They were unarmed, untrained and weak from hunger and forced labor, the guards were heavily armed, highly trained, healthy and fit.

The same happens in Africa. Somali rebels will steal food from Red Cross distribution points right in front of starving throngs and they got away with it. Immediate survival is a stronger instinct then long term survival.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 04:20:20 AM by pcw27 »

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #16: October 31, 2013, 04:09:22 AM »
Well history is on my side because this !@#$ happened.

The attempts happened. I'm not so sure "Heart and Mind" campaigns were predominately successful, and they generally consist of far more then one activity. Having been in the military we did/continue to use "small scale" food distribution along with other techniques. However in my experience the aims were for things that don't translate into BM. Often the small scale worked because we weren't trying to have some sort of flow on effect of good will, we were targeting individuals that mattered, either because of the power/influence they had (in which case the food was usually incidental to the real offers) or more often because we had some reason to believe that a working relationship with them would provide needed intelligence.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

pcw27

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #17: October 31, 2013, 04:22:17 AM »
The attempts happened. I'm not so sure "Heart and Mind" campaigns were predominately successful.

I'm not saying this feature should be predominantly successful either. It makes the game more vibrant for there to be things that might or might not work.

Having been in the military we did/continue to use "small scale" food distribution along with other techniques. However in my experience the aims were for things that don't translate into BM. Often the small scale worked because we weren't trying to have some sort of flow on effect of good will, we were targeting individuals that mattered, either because of the power/influence they had (in which case the food was usually incidental to the real offers) or more often because we had some reason to believe that a working relationship with them would provide needed intelligence.

This isn't the only use of the tactic in modern warfare. I know food was dropped all over Afghanistan prior to the initial invasion. Although what you're describing could be another interesting feature "bribe locals", but that would be done with gold.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 04:25:10 AM by pcw27 »

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #18: October 31, 2013, 04:34:00 AM »
I'm not saying this feature should be predominantly successful either. It makes the game more vibrant for there to be things that might or might not work.

This isn't the only use of the tactic in modern warfare. I know food was dropped all over Afghanistan prior to the initial invasion. Although what you're describing could be another interesting feature "bribe locals", but that would be done with gold.

Yes food was dropped. I was substantial amounts though. I think that is where the issue Indirik has comes from. There are two separate cases we are talking about. Food distributions on a significant or at least noticeable scales, and a military unit providing food from their own in field stores. In one case we are talking enough food to last the target group days if not weeks. On the other we are talking a single meal or so for a select group of people.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #19: October 31, 2013, 12:08:13 PM »
A bushel of food seems to feed 500 people for a day (at least from what I see on one of my Colonies character, the other two I can't check). That seems like a feasible sized handout. If that were used at half-rations, that's a thousand peasants. If 5 or 6 units dump food on a small depopulated region, it could feasibly be brought out of starvation temporarily.
BattleMaster has no concept of "half rations". You either have food, or you don't.

The 500/bushel factor is correct. Soldiers eat, IIRC, 3 times that much. So ~ 170 soldiers/bushel/day.

An 85 soldier unit would eat 1/2 bushel per day. 5 days of rations would be 2.5 bushels. Ten units of 85 soldiers giving up a day's worth of rations would be 5 bushels of food, enough to feed 2500 peasants for one day. That's not even enough to get them out of starvation. Hardly enough to have any effect on region morale.

A better mechanic than this, one that might be easier and have an effect that makes more sense, would be to allow the banker to use an existing Sell order in the realm to send food to a region that is currently under TO by the realm. That should be much easier than trying to work out carts and ration conversions, and also allow for meaningful deliveries of food to actually feed the region during the TO, and even for a while longer to get a lord in there to supply the region himself. This could help boost a sympathy TO, but introduces some possible exploits.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Dishman

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 513
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #20: October 31, 2013, 11:00:23 PM »
A better mechanic than this, one that might be easier and have an effect that makes more sense, would be to allow the banker to use an existing Sell order in the realm to send food to a region that is currently under TO by the realm. That should be much easier than trying to work out carts and ration conversions, and also allow for meaningful deliveries of food to actually feed the region during the TO, and even for a while longer to get a lord in there to supply the region himself. This could help boost a sympathy TO, but introduces some possible exploits.

That makes sense. Seems more efficient and easier to incorporate into the game.
Eoric the Dim (Perdan), Enoch the Bright (Asylon), Emeric the Dark (Obsidian Islands)

Orobos, The Insatiable Snake (Sandalak)

anoobowner

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Vorash Family
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #21: October 31, 2013, 11:22:10 PM »
I don't quite get why the mechanic has to actually feed the region. I never thought of any of the TO actions as happening to the majority or even many people. If a region has 1000 people, and you help 20 of them in a day with a freedom celebration or w/e, you content the region by 2%. Why couldn't you just have 'Share your bread' or whatever, have it as an effect like the other TO commands and not bother with the literal task of making the region less hungry in the general? To me, this is just as flavorful as the original post and it doesn't break the milieu of other TO actions.
VORASH FAMILY: Protheon--Riombara | Prospero--Morek | Pamela--Caergoth

"The thing with computer-generated imagery is that it's an incredibly powerful tool for making better visual effects. But I believe in an absolute difference between animation and photography." - Christopher Nolan

Penchant

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3121
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #22: November 01, 2013, 01:56:49 AM »
I don't quite get why the mechanic has to actually feed the region. I never thought of any of the TO actions as happening to the majority or even many people. If a region has 1000 people, and you help 20 of them in a day with a freedom celebration or w/e, you content the region by 2%. Why couldn't you just have 'Share your bread' or whatever, have it as an effect like the other TO commands and not bother with the literal task of making the region less hungry in the general? To me, this is just as flavorful as the original post and it doesn't break the milieu of other TO actions.
Its intended as a tactic to be used when TOing, not as a TO action. That and I believe TO actions are supposed to actually eventually affect region stats.
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
― G.K. Chesterton

Ketchum

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1667
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #23: November 01, 2013, 01:59:55 AM »
Remind me of when I became a Banker, I asked the Region Lords to empty the region granary food store so that invading force will starve during their TOs. Some kind of delay TO and starving army strategy where "we do not feed the enemy army". If you wish to prevent this army strategy by changing it into "invading force give out food so that the region peasants like them". Then I see no overlap between this both strategies.
Werewolf Games: Villager (6) Wolf (4) Seer (3); Lynched as Villager(1). Lost as Villager(1), Lost as Wolf(1) due to Parity. Hunted as Villager(1). Lynched as Seer(2).
Won as Villager(3). Won as Seer(1). Won as Wolf(3).
BM Characters: East Continent(Brock), Colonies(Ash), Dwilight(Gary)

Stabbity

  • Marketing
  • Mighty Duke
  • *****
  • Posts: 1336
  • Formerly the Himoura Family. Currently ?????????
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #24: November 01, 2013, 08:20:23 AM »
Quote
Read "Night". That's not what happens. There's a gruesomely detailed account of how this exact scenario played out in the concentration camps. The Nazi guards would throw food to the prisoners for entertainment. The prisoners indeed started fighting to the death for the food. None of them even considered charging the heavily armed guards. They were unarmed, untrained and weak from hunger and forced labor, the guards were heavily armed, highly trained, healthy and fit.

The same happens in Africa. Somali rebels will steal food from Red Cross distribution points right in front of starving throngs and they got away with it. Immediate survival is a stronger instinct then long term survival.

Two words: Automatic weapons. A sub machinegun is far more effective at crowd control than some spears and chainmail. Argument is not valid.
Life is a dance, it is only fitting that death sing the tune.

pcw27

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #25: November 02, 2013, 08:02:13 AM »

A better mechanic than this, one that might be easier and have an effect that makes more sense, would be to allow the banker to use an existing Sell order in the realm to send food to a region that is currently under TO by the realm. That should be much easier than trying to work out carts and ration conversions, and also allow for meaningful deliveries of food to actually feed the region during the TO, and even for a while longer to get a lord in there to supply the region himself. This could help boost a sympathy TO, but introduces some possible exploits.

I like that idea. Haven't there also been complaints about the Banker position being underpowered? This would help that problem as well as diversify takeover tactics.

Two words: Automatic weapons. A sub machinegun is far more effective at crowd control than some spears and chainmail. Argument is not valid.

You missed the point. The technology is not the issue. The point is disorganized starving masses typically shy away from certain death even if there's a chance it will get them food. To a medieval peasant ten men with spears and chain-mail spell certain death just as much as one soldier with a machine-gun would to an Auschwitz prisoner. Machine guns merely change the ratio of soldiers to starving people you need.

There are many many accounts of armed trained soldiers killing ten times their number or more of unarmed and untrained peasants and those are usually healthy peasants not starving and diseased ones. Now if these peasants were an armed and organized resistance that would be another matter, but there's already a mechanic for that.

Mind you I'm not saying a mob will never overpower such a force. I'm saying they'd need to vastly VASTLY outnumber it before they'd even try. So yeah I would concede that the scenario you described could play out if say a single twenty man unit started handing out food in the middle of the city square in a mob of two hundred starving beggars. Even then if they were a hoplite style force they would stand a good chance of taking up a tortuga formation and slaughtering wave after wave of beggars until the rest give up and flee.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 08:13:04 AM by pcw27 »

Stabbity

  • Marketing
  • Mighty Duke
  • *****
  • Posts: 1336
  • Formerly the Himoura Family. Currently ?????????
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #26: November 03, 2013, 12:22:50 AM »
Quote
Mind you I'm not saying a mob will never overpower such a force. I'm saying they'd need to vastly VASTLY outnumber it before they'd even try. So yeah I would concede that the scenario you described could play out if say a single twenty man unit started handing out food in the middle of the city square in a mob of two hundred starving beggars. Even then if they were a hoplite style force they would stand a good chance of taking up a tortuga formation and slaughtering wave after wave of beggars until the rest give up and flee.

My point is when you're out performing a takeover action you aren't doing it within the confines of the army's  camp. Your men are spread out, not in formatiom, peforming an activity. You are far more likely to get overrun and its not hard to do it. If a 25 man peasant mob can stop you from looting, whats to stop the peasants in a population center from mobbing and killing your men when their children are starving to death and you have food? Never under estimate the power of the mob.

The main reason this wouldn't work is you're not in formation and have no support in the midst of a peasant population that usually vastly outnumbers you. If you were on battle footing, formed up in an open field, yea, that would make a difference... But you can't takeover a region like that.
Life is a dance, it is only fitting that death sing the tune.

Eirikr

  • Guest
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #27: November 04, 2013, 04:58:42 AM »
If a 25 man peasant mob can stop you from looting...

Forget that, a 25 man peasant mob can stop two armies of hundreds of men from fighting eachother!

pcw27

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #28: November 04, 2013, 08:08:10 AM »
My point is when you're out performing a takeover action you aren't doing it within the confines of the army's  camp. Your men are spread out, not in formatiom, peforming an activity.

Actually they'd probably be traveling in a patrol formation in large groups and they'd have some units standing by to move in force in case of a riot. That is assuming they're not complete morons of course.

You are far more likely to get overrun and its not hard to do it.

It's pretty hard actually. Especially when you're opponents are severely emaciated and your "allies" are just as likely to kill you as they are your "enemies".
 
If a 25 man peasant mob can stop you from looting,

Which is a stupid feature people are actively looking to change.

whats to stop the peasants in a population center from mobbing and killing your men when their children are starving to death and you have food? Never under estimate the power of the mob.

A sword through their stomachs. You also shouldn't over estimate the power of the mob either. Disorganized mobs have indeed on occasion overthrown occupying forces. The vast majority of the time however they get slaughtered to the last man.

In the case of a food riot the peasants can't even really take advantage of their numbers because they aren't united. In fact they're much more likely to kill each other for the food then to attack the soldiers. Again I refer to the incidents in Night, the camp prisoners for the most part had no loyalty to each other. Unlike a well trained military force they didn't think of themselves as a unit. There was no "If we all band together we can all get their food" the thinking was more along the lines of "If I kill the guy next to me I can get his food". That's what it boils down to. Each peasant, as an individual will ask themselves, at least subconsciously, "Do I try to take food from the weak civilian or the armed and armored soldier?". Most are going to pick the civilian. A few will be fool hardy enough to pick the soldier and get slaughtered. Then the ones that were about to pick soldier are going to think twice. People further off will see this and their first thought will be to stay out of it. In fact that's what saved Elie Wiesel when the guards were throwing food to the prisoners. There's a reason military forces spend so much time training their soldiers to view themselves as a unit, it's all to overcome these sort of individual self preservation instincts.

The main reason this wouldn't work is you're not in formation and have no support in the midst of a peasant population that usually vastly outnumbers you. If you were on battle footing, formed up in an open field, yea, that would make a difference... But you can't takeover a region like that.

First of all, a well trained force should be able to form ranks quickly.

Second, at any given moment your force is not necessarily vastly outnumbered. A city is not a mass blob of people. The distribution of population density is complex. A unit could conceivably find a neighborhood or gathering place in a city that they can feed completely, at least for one meal, without leaving anyone out and without making a big scene. In a rural region soldiers can target individual villages.

The main flaw in your argument is at every turn it relies on the soldiers going about the general act of distributing food like absolute idiots who don't use the slightest bit of common sense.


De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Re: Hand out food
« Reply #29: November 04, 2013, 09:32:12 AM »
Until later in the period it is mostly incorrect to refer to medeval soldiers as disciplined let alone highly disciplined, especially off the battle field. The other consideration is Howong have they been starving. There is a massive difference between going without foods for a few days and being on I sufficent rations for weeks or months.


Here is some quick reading for you about large peasant revolts in the later medieval period

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_revolt_in_late_medieval_Europe

I am particularly fond of the Ivaylo rebellion where a swine herder ended up as the Tsar of Bulgaria.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 09:46:30 AM by De-Legro »
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.