Atamara Update?

[Stabbity]

I put it on quotes just cause you never had, and will not anytime soon to have that freedom :)

Lyoness was creation of this war, not sure if there is even left much of nobles whom were Estonian when they surrendered?

Many of my advisors adviced me to burn our border lands immediatly after Eston surrendered, i now must admit that it would have been good idea :)

-Jaune

We would have, had Darka respected our very reasonable terms. CE has been very amiable towards it.

[jaune]

Heh, those terms were ridiculous, take a look at the map!

With my edits, it would have been fair and equal and would have put CE & Darka on same position.

[Stabbity]

Heh, those terms were ridiculous, take a look at the map!

With my edits, it would have been fair and equal and would have put CE & Darka on same position.

I've never seen your edit, but you can hardly blame a realm for now wanting their lands to be the battleground for two superpowers.

[jaune]

It is their choise, being neutral (treating both sides equally), or they choose side.

Now they thought they were neutral, but when other side is jumping on joy with their "neutrality" and support it with great joy, while other side is grunting and wants to change things, alert bells should ring, mayby that proposal was not that neutral after all? And pushing and THREATENING to accept that treaty or they will start to co-operate more deeply with the other side, doesnt make it anymore neutral.

-jaune

[Stabbity]

It is their choise, being neutral (treating both sides equally), or they choose side.

Now they thought they were neutral, but when other side is jumping on joy with their "neutrality" and support it with great joy, while other side is grunting and wants to change things, alert bells should ring, mayby that proposal was not that neutral after all? And pushing and THREATENING to accept that treaty or they will start to co-operate more deeply with the other side, doesnt make it anymore neutral.

-jaune

If by threatening, you mean notifying you that your realm was in violation of our border policy, asking you to not fight a battle on our lands, and then your General telling us to remove our troops from one of our own regions because you were switching to murderous settings, then yes, we threatened you.

[jaune]

There was also threat about co-operation with CE, threat things to get escalated if we dont move out etc...

This war occurs because of conflict of intrests, like wars usually do. Your intrest is to keep battles outside from your realm, mine are to keep them outside my realm. There was few options to achieve this for you, but only one option to achieve my intrest and i'm proceeding on it.

-Jaune

[Eirikr]

Let's not get into an argument about it. There were definitely threats on both sides. Who made one first (probably me) is irrelevant because, under normal circumstances, Darka had no passage rights anyway. The standard response is supposed to be mild anger. Add in a war with a bandaid "compensation" and ordering the lord of his own region out: you've got a major problem.

You are definitely right that this war comes out of a conflict of interest (as well as correctly identifying the conflicts), but I disagree that you had one option. I swore Ravendon was painting his solution for Darka on a billboard... Too late now, though.

I don't want to start a forum war (because this definitely could), but that's why I'd expect Darka to lose: You're focused on winning the next battle. Enri is okay with losing that battle because it mean he wins the war instead. It might still work out for Darka due to sheer might (and I hope it does; always been a fun realm to deal with), but the road's not going to get any easier.

[Blue Star]

What are passage rights? ::)

March Darka March!!

[Penchant]

Let's not get into an argument about it. There were definitely threats on both sides. Who made one first (probably me) is irrelevant because, under normal circumstances, Darka had no passage rights anyway. The standard response is supposed to be mild anger. Add in a war with a bandaid "compensation" and ordering the lord of his own region out: you've got a major problem.

You are definitely right that this war comes out of a conflict of interest (as well as correctly identifying the conflicts), but I disagree that you had one option. I swore Ravendon was painting his solution for Darka on a billboard... Too late now, though.

I don't want to start a forum war (because this definitely could), but that's why I'd expect Darka to lose: You're focused on winning the next battle. Enri is okay with losing that battle because it mean he wins the war instead. It might still work out for Darka due to sheer might (and I hope it does; always been a fun realm to deal with), but the road's not going to get any easier.

Yeah it was not a smart move by Darka. Was it more beneficial to CE Lyonesse's policy? Probably, but was it worse than getting a new enemy? No. Darka should be trying to get allies, not give them to CE.

Selfishness is not in the best interests of yourself long term. Sometimes you have to be willing to take some losses to get the big win in the end, something Darka evidently is willing to do.

[BarticaBoat]

if you only heard the grumbling about the treaty in CE... I insisted, managed to push it through, and it's worked magnificently hasn't it  8)

now if only i hadn't lost that election  :'( that was actually a real shocker for me.

[Eirikr]

Yeah it was not a smart move by Darka. Was it more beneficial to CE Lyonesse's policy? Probably, but was it worse than getting a new enemy? No. Darka should be trying to get allies, not give them to CE.

Selfishness is not in the best interests of yourself long term. Sometimes you have to be willing to take some losses to get the big win in the end, something Darka evidently is willing to do.

My point exactly. I was trying not to be so obvious about it, but I guess there's no reason not to... IC, Lyonesse is pretty cheesed off.

I also wasn't aware that negotiation on the topic had broken down between Raziella and Kostaja; I actually thought the treaty had been signed by at least one party by now... But Darka didn't bother to investigate or work the situation to postpone something like this. Though...

New Record Achieved! Start a war in 3 letters!

[jaune]

The treaty would have been end of Darka and Lyoness clearly was switching its side to CE.

All ignorance to my proposal to edit treaty more fair and claiming it is fair, which it really is not. All the talks were pretty much accept this! Then denying our passage to Lyoness while CE march on us.

I pretty much counted that Lyoness would have "loved" its realm enough not to get it burnt and we seemed to have decent relations, which although changed pretty quickly when that silly treaty was put on table.

Anyway, this definately spice up things.

-jaune

[Eirikr]

The treaty would have been end of Darka and Lyoness clearly was switching its side to CE.

Except we weren't. Ravendon dropped several big hints that if Darka put in some effort, Lyonesse might try to do them some favors. We only explicitly mentioned the possibility of joining CE's side after Darka was ordering us out of our own regions... even then it was an example of logic, not a declaration of policy.

All ignorance to my proposal to edit treaty more fair and claiming it is fair, which it really is not. All the talks were pretty much accept this! Then denying our passage to Lyoness while CE march on us.

I'll agree it's not fair, but the original treaty concept did hurt both sides. (Enri actually suggested giving up on Darka and declaring war on Lyonesse when the issue first came up.) I can't comment on your edits because they never made it to the rest of the realm's eyes. If they were good solutions, why not ask about their status and have Ravendon look into it, instead of threatening to obliterate Melias?

Miscommunication aside, neither side had passage rights, as I said. If Darka had asked, it probably would have been granted  and the CE would now be waiting in Anost. You can't really fault us for denying you passage rights when you're already halfway through our realm without announcing your arrival. We should have probably had scouts looking for you, but is the thief not a thief when the banker forgets to lock the safe? The CE, on the other hand, actually asked for permission.

I pretty much counted that Lyoness would have "loved" its realm enough not to get it burnt and we seemed to have decent relations, which although changed pretty quickly when that silly treaty was put on table.

You forget who is in the realm... The Himouras are notorious for wanting respect, be it for their sovereignty or for their family. Ravendon is an ex-member of the League of the Eagle who kept trying to subvert the most powerful outside controls on Coria to make it truly independent. Caleb is from a Minas Ithil family that longs for its old home and the independence it used to have. All were founding members of Silnaria and then involved in the rebellion when we thought Merlin was jeopardizing our chances for independence (a catch 22, in fact). Add to that the fact that the rest of Lyonesse is fairly new and the realm is still looking to carve out its place and you've got a powderkeg of idealism. Slipping out from under the CE's boot to rest neatly beneath Darka's boot wouldn't be acceptable to most of us.

Also you've just described blackmail... "We know you treasure XYZ, so if you don't obey, we'll hurt XYZ." It might work, but it only ever builds resent. We thought Darka would have enough sense to realize that wasn't going to work.

Anyway, this definately spice up things.

-jaune

That much, we can definitely agree upon. Things are going to get tense, but I want to thank you right now, Jaune, for helping to keep this game fun. :)

[jaune]

I had ALWAYS informed when Darka entered your lands, always tried to inform where we go to avoid unwanted casualties.

Your Queen didnt most of the time reply, of if she replied those were positive soundings, until the last trip, when she didnt reply at all, until we were at Melias watching CE army behind the border. I have re-posted my proposal to CE & Lyoness Queen, but i guess it is a bit late now.

-Jaune

[Eirikr]

I had ALWAYS informed when Darka entered your lands, always tried to inform where we go to avoid unwanted casualties.

Your Queen didnt most of the time reply, of if she replied those were positive soundings, until the last trip, when she didnt reply at all, until we were at Melias watching CE army behind the border. I have re-posted my proposal to CE & Lyoness Queen, but i guess it is a bit late now.

-Jaune

I thought it might be something like that, but I had no way of knowing. I'd always seen it as common practice to inform the Ruler and General, so I had to act on what I knew. I don't think Ravendon received anything (even before I brought this issue to bear) until you guys were in Melias telling us to move... which, as I kept saying, wasn't very nice of an uninvited guest.

Typically, no reply doesn't translate into permission, either. OOC, I accept the argument that it'd have been tactically braindead for you to wait for Raziella's permission, but there's more at stake.

Ah well... It should be fun. I haven't had this much commanding to do in a while.