Removal of Priest Immunity

[Chenier]

Indeed, the comparison is wrong on so many levels it's beyond belief. And even if they were comparable, which they totally aren't, at least government members can be protested out of office, wounded out office, and so on...

[Marlboro]

It can also be used to power game. It's been done in the past.

Give me three clear-cut examples. I haven't been here as long as you, so I am interested in the lore of this subject.

Religions should not have to be paranoid about making members full members on the off chance that they will become rogue priests and gain immunity from all crimes.

They should, for all the reasons presented in this thread. Remember that they aren't just priests, they are noblemen, typically landed and often in positions of major authority, like Medugnatos of Corsanctum or the most recent former Prime Minister of CE.

Really, who should have this power? I've heard a lot of arguments as to why it should exist but no good answer on who should have it.  Chenier's initial suggestion was just plain ludicrous. Any elder? And it only takes an hour for all the paperwork? That sounds like it would lead to even worse abuse. For example, when Khari was on the elder council of SA and, assuming that ability existed, I could've pressured her to use it, bam, there go all of SA's priests.

A rogue priest is one thing, but individually they don't wield the kind of power you would be placing in every Elder's hands.

[De-Legro]

No. Nobody "elected" him as a priest. To be a priest only requires being a full member of the religion. To be trusted as a full member is not the same thing as being trusted as a priest. Religions should not have to be paranoid about making members full members on the off chance that they will become rogue priests and gain immunity from all crimes.

Perhaps we need a rank between full and elder for religions that exists as the priest range. That way pious nobles are still able to be full members, while providing a system to elevate characters to the priesthood.

[Daycryn]

They should, for all the reasons presented in this thread. Remember that they aren't just priests, they are noblemen, typically landed and often in positions of major authority, like Medugnatos of Corsanctum or the most recent former Prime Minister of CE.

Yes but only priests have the magic immunity power. So, it doesn't matter if you're a mighty lord, a king, a prime minister, a duke - none of that grants you magic immunity power. Just being a priest does. And it takes basically nothing to become a priest. So, want to have magic immunity from a religion? Become a priest. And your proposed solution to that is.... make it harder for people to become full members?

Why not just make it harder to become a priest?

Better yet, get rid of this stupid immunity. It's absolutely unrealistic. "We'd excommunicate you, but last night you found the Magical Priest Collar of Power, so uh, now we can't. The Prophet of the religion can't. No power on earth can. Because magic."

A rogue priest is one thing, but individually they don't wield the kind of power you would be placing in every Elder's hands.

The power to kick members out of the religion? That power that every Elder already has?

[Marlboro]

The power to kick members out of the religion? That power that every Elder already has?

Very different from kicking out priests, pretty self-evident.

[Stabbity]

I don't like this on the basis that it can be gamed. If the top elder wants it done, all he has to do is demote all of the other elders temporarily and all of a sudden he'd have all of the freedom he desires? I don't think restrictions are worth it if they can be gamed like this. I also don't think the marks system ever really worked all too good.

You call that gaming, but I call it a power play. "Haha, look at what I can do!" and suddenly you've alienated the other elder members of the faith, and they possess power to dismantle the faith.

"Oh really? We're going to reform the faith without you, and excommunicate everyone because you were dumb enough to re-promote us after this."

Conversely you base the number of bad marks needed on the total membership, and suddenly you're no longer able to do that, and it encourages religions to have a diversified group of elder members. Can you survive without it? Yes. Can you kick out rogue priests without making some promotions, no. Which you shouldn't be able to anyway. If you have a small and weak group of elder members, they obviously don't wield enough power to effectively excommunicate a clergy member.

And while yes, the marks system didn't get used that much, I'll argue that it was a result of it not being around for that long (by my standards for bm features), and that when it was implemented the game culture was different, and more nationalist than it is now.

[Daycryn]

Very different from kicking out priests, pretty self-evident.

Not really. Your example of an Elder getting rid of all the priests, well, as things are currently, any Elder can kick out any (and all, potentially) members (save priests) of lower rank, even other Elders. That's not too great a power for an Elder to have, but to kick out the priests, well, that's too much? Why? What makes a priest so special, when it takes nothing to become a priest?

[Stabbity]

Not really. Your example of an Elder getting rid of all the priests, well, as things are currently, any Elder can kick out any (and all, potentially) members (save priests) of lower rank, even other Elders. That's not too great a power for an Elder to have, but to kick out the priests, well, that's too much? Why? What makes a priest so special, when it takes nothing to become a priest?

Because priests give up everything that makes up the core game to dedicate themselves to a cause. No more will they fight battles, and gain honor and prestige. There is no requirement, but there is a cost.

[pcw27]

Indeed, the comparison is wrong on so many levels it's beyond belief. And even if they were comparable, which they totally aren't, at least government members can be protested out of office, wounded out office, and so on...

Hey there's an idea. Create a "protest" option. All full members have the option to try and vote any priest out of office.

[Daycryn]

Because priests give up everything that makes up the core game to dedicate themselves to a cause. No more will they fight battles, and gain honor and prestige. There is no requirement, but there is a cost.

Opportunity cost, sure, but even that's only temporary. It's not like heroes, or indeed even like adventurers->warriors, where there's no turning back. And if you're already a lord or government member you're not exactly losing much power by not being able to command troops.

There should be some requirements. I really think the recommendation idea would be useful here.  To be a priest should show not only that your character wants to be a priest but that at least someone else in the religious leadership does too. This protects the institution of religion the same way that the recommendation process protects the institution of the aristocracy. And the recommendation process already exists and is already tied to class changes, so probably not as much modification needed?

[pcw27]

Opportunity cost, sure, but even that's only temporary. It's not like heroes, or indeed even like adventurers->warriors, where there's no turning back. And if you're already a lord or government member you're not exactly losing much power by not being able to command troops.

There should be some requirements. I really think the recommendation idea would be useful here.  To be a priest should show not only that your character wants to be a priest but that at least someone else in the religious leadership does too. This protects the institution of religion the same way that the recommendation process protects the institution of the aristocracy. And the recommendation process already exists and is already tied to class changes, so probably not as much modification needed?

To work it would need to have multiple ways you can receive enough recommendations.

A single recommendation from the prophet/founder/pope/whoever's in charge should give a noble automatic approval. That's the simplest way to allow new religions to expand.

After that they should need a certain number of recommendations from elders, or a certain larger number of recommendations from regular priests. They could be percentile like 25% of either group, or they could be a fixed number. Alternatively all recommendations could be weighted by the rank of whoever's giving them, but that would be pretty complicated.

[Marlboro]

Not really.

Yes, really. You kick out a normal member, he retains his class, he can go back to any temple and rejoin the religion. Kick out a priest, and suddenly they're a warrior. If they're in neutral or, gods forbid, enemy realms, then they are stuck travelling as a normal noble, whereupon they must head back to a region with a temple of sufficient size that is also in their own realm (Can't change class outside of realm). That could be quite a ways away from where priests tend to wander.

Even if they are in their own realm, standing right outside a suitably large temple, they will have to wait several days to change back to a priest because they just changed classes (against their will). So if one rogue elder can kick out every priest, then the religion will be without priests at minimum several days.

It's much different than simply kicking out a non-priest.

[Indirik]

Yes, really. You kick out a normal member, he retains his class, he can go back to any temple and rejoin the religion. Kick out a priest, and suddenly they're a warrior. If they're in neutral or, gods forbid, enemy realms, then they are stuck travelling as a normal noble, whereupon they must head back to a region with a temple of sufficient size that is also in their own realm (Can't change class outside of realm). That could be quite a ways away from where priests tend to wander.

Isn't it kinda funny how your situation can so rapidly change in this game? Imagine how crappy it would be if you could be on a raid deep into enemy territory and get in  battle, get wounded and your unit wiped out, and your realm-mates left you behind, and you'd have to find your own way home as a normal noble, traveling through all those enemy regions. That would totally suck. Good thing it can't happen, huh?

Even if they are in their own realm, standing right outside a suitably large temple, they will have to wait several days to change back to a priest because they just changed classes (against their will). So if one rogue elder can kick out every priest, then the religion will be without priests at minimum several days.

1) Assuming that no none else in the entire religion wants to be a priest.
2) Too bad for them. The dev team is generally not in the business of protecting people from their own stupidity, or the possible negative effects of their own actions.
3) As with the ability to kick out other religion members, you wouldn't be able to kick out people who are higher-ranked than you. If the highest ranked member in your religion is a non-priest, then sure, he could kick out every priest. But, hey, a judge can ban every non-council member in the realm, who then can't rejoin the realm until someone else gets made the judge to lift all the bans. How come you're not up in arms over that?

[Chenier]

Give me three clear-cut examples. I haven't been here as long as you, so I am interested in the lore of this subject.

They should, for all the reasons presented in this thread. Remember that they aren't just priests, they are noblemen, typically landed and often in positions of major authority, like Medugnatos of Corsanctum or the most recent former Prime Minister of CE.

Really, who should have this power? I've heard a lot of arguments as to why it should exist but no good answer on who should have it.  Chenier's initial suggestion was just plain ludicrous. Any elder? And it only takes an hour for all the paperwork? That sounds like it would lead to even worse abuse. For example, when Khari was on the elder council of SA and, assuming that ability existed, I could've pressured her to use it, bam, there go all of SA's priests.

A rogue priest is one thing, but individually they don't wield the kind of power you would be placing in every Elder's hands.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, a rogue full member being able to cause mayhem is totally fine, but a rogue elder being able to do the same is ridiculously overpowered and prone to abuse?

If Kari was on the elder council, you could pressure her to kick out EVERY OTHER MEMBER of the church. Are you saying that this wouldn't matter? That only being able to kick out non-rogue priests would hurt the church? Seriously?

[Marlboro]

Isn't it kinda funny how your situation can so rapidly change in this game? Imagine how crappy it would be if you could be on a raid deep into enemy territory and get in  battle, get wounded and your unit wiped out, and your realm-mates left you behind, and you'd have to find your own way home as a normal noble, traveling through all those enemy regions. That would totally suck. Good thing it can't happen, huh?

False equivalence spotted. Quick, hard to starboard!

1) Assuming that no none else in the entire religion wants to be a priest.
2) Too bad for them. The dev team is generally not in the business of protecting people from their own stupidity, or the possible negative effects of their own actions.
3) As with the ability to kick out other religion members, you wouldn't be able to kick out people who are higher-ranked than you. If the highest ranked member in your religion is a non-priest, then sure, he could kick out every priest. But, hey, a judge can ban every non-council member in the realm, who then can't rejoin the realm until someone else gets made the judge to lift all the bans. How come you're not up in arms over that?

A judge is one member of a realm, one single guy with a number of checks and balances against his position, not a council of people each with conflicting interests and virtually no oversight. Why not just make it so the founder and only the founder can kick priests? Oh, right, because the founder of Sanguis Astroism deleted his character, and this whole push is being made with that specific religion and no others in mind.