Upgraded Marshal and Vice-Marshal Formations

[T0mislav]

It would be nice to upgrade Marshal's and Vice-Marshal's control over the army.

- Marshals and Vice-Marshals unskilled in leadership (0-24) should have access only to offered formations.
- Marshals and Vice-Marshals with basic knowledge of leadership (25-49) should have access to random formation that gives them option to set formation settings for common tipes of unites: infantry, archers and cavalry.
- Marshals and Vice-Marshals with advanced skills in leadership (50-74) should have access to random formation that gives them option to set formation settings for all tipes of unites: infantry, mixed-infantry, archers, cavalry, SF and ranged SF.
- Marshals and Vice-Marshals who are experts in leadership (75+) should have access to random formation that gives them option to set formation to every single unit in their army (in formation bar that should have list of unites in their army and option to change formation for every single unit).

- Marshals and Vice-Marshals with skill in leadershim 25+ should have option to set formation for each range class of archers (ranges 2-5).
- Marshals and Vice-Marshals with skill in leadershim 50+ should have option to set formation for each range class of ranged SF (ranges 2-5).

Naturaly, their formations would apply only when they are participatin in battle - just like it is now.

[Anaris]

There are plans to improve and add to the formations available to marshals for setting in combat. However, they will look somewhat different from this.

[Eirikr]

Though I'm sure this is considered in Anaris' plans, those leadership rankings seem to be a little high. While leadership is generally easier to gain due to it being included with many of the standard features of the game, I don't believe anyone actively trains in it to reach high numbers as they might with swordfighting or infiltration.

Also, are you intending to get rid of the existing presets in favor of this? Or would this be an additional "preset" to use at those levels?

[Anaris]

Also, are you intending to get rid of the existing presets in favor of this? Or would this be an additional "preset" to use at those levels?

I believe the more basic presets are still worth keeping. However, several of the more advanced presets were made worse than useless a few years ago with the overhaul to how overcrowding works. Those would definitely be replaced.

[Bael]

It would be nice to be able to see what exactly each formation meant, as well.

[T0mislav]

Eirikr,

No, I would not get rid of existing formations - Marshals and Vice-Marshals with leadership skill <25 would be able to use only offered formations (those existing), while those with high leadership would get access to new settings as I described.

I do not think that those leadership rankings are too high.
I agree with you that few people are training leadership and for those who do not train it in practice nothing would change - they would have the same options as they have now.

My idea is to encourage training of leadership (because I did not see much use of it) and first of all to give some benefits in the form of new options to those who spent their time and gold to train it  proportional to their efforts (invested time and gold) in traing the skill, so those who spent couple of weeks and few gold coins training leadership to reach level 50 would get option to set their own basic formations while those who invested months and tones of gold on training leadership to reach 75 would have benefit to set formation for every single unit in their army.

As much as it would not be fun that everyone can become expert in leadership in few weeks, same way it is not fair that the one who spent half of year on training has the same options as one who trained for week or two.

I believe that for leadership rankings I set benefits from training are appropriate to efforts (time and gold) invested in training.

[Zakilevo]

I wish you could customize behaviours of your army each turn. Like infantry attack after certain turns and etc.

But that would make things too complicated.

[Eirikr]

Eirikr,

No, I would not get rid of existing formations - Marshals and Vice-Marshals with leadership skill <25 would be able to use only offered formations (those existing), while those with high leadership would get access to new settings as I described.

I do not think that those leadership rankings are too high.
I agree with you that few people are training leadership and for those who do not train it in practice nothing would change - they would have the same options as they have now.

My idea is to encourage training of leadership (because I did not see much use of it) and first of all to give some benefits in the form of new options to those who spent their time and gold to train it  proportional to their efforts (invested time and gold) in traing the skill, so those who spent couple of weeks and few gold coins training leadership to reach level 50 would get option to set their own basic formations while those who invested months and tones of gold on training leadership to reach 75 would have benefit to set formation for every single unit in their army.

As much as it would not be fun that everyone can become expert in leadership in few weeks, same way it is not fair that the one who spent half of year on training has the same options as one who trained for week or two.

I believe that for leadership rankings I set benefits from training are appropriate to efforts (time and gold) invested in training.

Ah, okay. I thought there might be some further rationale. Makes sense to me. As far as the current formations go, I do know that you don't have full access until somewhere around 50%. (They Shall Not Pass, etc.) There may also be more beyond that, but I think my leadership was at 65% or so with nothing new.

Leadership is still important in battle, right? In terms of unit control and potentially effective CS? Would this change alter the current balance of that (either in terms of overall power or in light of more people actually spending time training it)? This question is both for Anaris' plan (I know it's just a plan) and the feature request.

[T0mislav]

My point is that regardless of how many new formations is created, it will not be good till Marshals and Vice-Marshals (at some level of leadership) do not get option to create their own formation.
In praxis they are creating them anyway by giving formation orders to their army, but there are always someone that do not follow the order.
I agree that at low levels of leadership this it is reasonable to expect that leader will not manage to enforce his will about formation settings to his entire army, but it is hihgly unlikely that excelent leaders will have the same success dealing with it as those who have non skill in leadership.
Present model is very contradictory because organization of army depends more of members of the army then of leadership skill of Marshal and Vice-Marshal i.e. in-game formation on the battlefield depends more of OOC players who are setting unite settings then of in-game leadership skill of Marshal and Vice-Marshal so it is often happening that some green Marshal of realm with hard core players controls his army better then battle forged dog of war in some realm with more comfortable players.

[Eirikr]

I may be wrong on this, but I believe unit settings are provided as backup; the formations do override any settings made (except digging in).

The cases where it fails is when a troop leader isn't there and the settings are used (which would not be resolved by your FR) or where a troop leader doesn't like his formation options and chooses to set none, handing out custom orders instead. The flexibility you request here solves that problem quite completely.

Though, I kinda feel like a similar, also cool idea might be to add special benefits to the existing formations. Maybe a small advantage to offense or defense, or a resistance to a particular unit type? We know how to hard counter these with strategy, but it might be cool to have different, unique uses for the presets (so they don't fall into obsolescence themselves).

[Gustav Kuriga]

I may be wrong on this, but I believe unit settings are provided as backup; the formations do override any settings made (except digging in).

The cases where it fails is when a troop leader isn't there and the settings are used (which would not be resolved by your FR) or where a troop leader doesn't like his formation options and chooses to set none, handing out custom orders instead. The flexibility you request here solves that problem quite completely.

Though, I kinda feel like a similar, also cool idea might be to add special benefits to the existing formations. Maybe a small advantage to offense or defense, or a resistance to a particular unit type? We know how to hard counter these with strategy, but it might be cool to have different, unique uses for the presets (so they don't fall into obsolescence themselves).

You are wrong about this. Formation settings take priority when the Marshal or Vice-Marshal is in the same battle.

[vonGenf]

You are wrong about this. Formation settings take priority when the Marshal or Vice-Marshal is in the same battle.

Isn't that pretty much what he said?

[Gustav Kuriga]

Isn't that pretty much what he said?

You seem to be correct, I just misread it.

[T0mislav]

You are correct Eirikr, unit settings are provided as backup while the formations do override any settings - at least it was the idea.
But praxis is completely different - duo to marshals and vice-marshals are not able to set formation at their will (those formations that they can chose between are mostly not sattisfying needs of specific sittuations) they are mostly seting marshal/vice-marshal formation to "no formation" and they are creating desired formations by ordering unit settings to their army.

[Eirikr]

You are correct Eirikr, unit settings are provided as backup while the formations do override any settings - at least it was the idea.
But praxis is completely different - duo to marshals and vice-marshals are not able to set formation at their will (those formations that they can chose between are mostly not sattisfying needs of specific sittuations) they are mostly seting marshal/vice-marshal formation to "no formation" and they are creating desired formations by ordering unit settings to their army.

It's somewhat beyond the point, but I still see the base formations used regularly. It's true, a lot of marshals prefer no formation, but Infantry Wall and Infantry Charge are still prevalent in the realms in which I've played. I agree that your FR has merit, is a good idea, and solves some problems with the game, but I think you're misrepresenting the need a little bit.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I am also saying that you don't really need the current use example; in my mind, at least, the feature is well-reasoned enough to be of use without it and you aren't proposing it be scrapped, either.