East Continent OOC/Titans Issue

[Velax]

Letter from Ryu Hinamoto   (24 days, 3 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in message group "General Staff" (13 recipients)

Units with less than 300 CS or less than 20 man should preset travels to Sirion city and recruit the maximum they can.

Also, we have huge amounts of archers... we need marshals to ask the people if they would switch to infantry. (OOC: remember that we cant order that because it messes with the IR.)

    In arms,
    Ryu Hinamoto
    Royal of Sirion
    Duke of Karbala
    Margrave of Karbala

I've seen this message bandied about a few times now. Ever stop to consider that perhaps this wasn't the message the Titans were referring to? Or at least not the only message?

[Buffalkill]

I strongly suggest that Tom should reconsider this new Titans system. It resembles the Star Chamber and it will only speed up the loss of players. It's a huge step backward from the transparency of the Magistrates system, imperfect as it was. If the Titans don't want to be criticized, they shouldn't be sitting in judgment of their fellow players. They should have the courage of their convictions.

[Buffalkill]

I've seen this message bandied about a few times now. Ever stop to consider that perhaps this wasn't the message the Titans were referring to? Or at least not the only message?

That's the problem with secret proceedings. Well, one of many problems. This is just the beginning.

[Tel]

EDIT: WARNING, LONG POST AHEAD. 

Hinamoto, correct me if what I'm about to say is inaccurate.

Hinamoto isn't accusing the Titans, Tom, or the developers of using the system for their own personal benefits, in the sense some of them or any of them, purposefully used their powers to let these reports pass and punishment taken.  He isn't angry at that, he doesn't feel angry in that manner.

What he (and perhaps the majority of folks who seem) who seem to be opposing/disgruntled about this entire incident is that even though the Titans passed judgement on his case of breaking an IR, it is the timing and presentation of these reports and verdicts that seems to be a root cause of lots of these... reactions from all sorts of people (not just Hinamoto) here on the forums, on IRC, and in-game during the last few days.

The Titans are not to take in past player history, or recommendations of character or a player's personality and track record.  They focus on the report at hand, and whether a rule was broken or not.  They issue a verdict, and in this case, as Penchant has reminded me on IRC, they decided to also make that verdict a public one to all of the realm (it's not always going to be public realm-wide verdicts).

What some folks feel has happened here, Hinamoto included, is that the Titan system has been abused in a timely manner to coincide with yes, an actual IR violation that he is guilty of -- so that Hinamoto as a player, and his characters, suffer punishment/warnings if the Titans deem it so.  And so they have. 

But not abused by the Titans themselves, necessarily, in the sense of one of them reported him first as a player/realm-mate, then made sure to use their Titan powers to see the verdict end in guilty, and to further use their Titan privileges to encourage a public verdict to shame him. No, that's not the case here that I think anyone believes or has meant to imply.  It seems that is what you feel Hinamoto is accusing the Titans/Devs/Staff of doing, and why he is angry, folks.  But again, unless I'm wrong, he isn't angry/acussing the Titans of that.  He, and others, feel something more along the lines of what follows below:

What some suspect really happened (or is happening)

What many folks suspect, and believe, is that someone else (not specifically a Titan, but just any other regular joe, non-Titan player) in the realm has just recently in the last month, ever since Hinamoto's character took to the General position of the realm, begun to target him and his characters for reporting -- to the Titans -- at every chance they get.  Is it because he was actually breaking rules and IR?  Maybe it is, I don't have any actual logs or access to un-modified logs that actually show any of these other 3-4 reports Hinamoto claims has been filed against him in just the last month -- I've only seen the Titan verdict/warning of the public judgement passed on what appears to be the latest report someone has filed against him, which happens to be him breaking the IR for nobles/players being able to choose their own units.  And then not less than a day later, the second public Titan verdict/punishment for insulting other players OOC because of the first Titan verdict.

It also appears there's enough of something -- whether it's evidence, a gut feeling, or just hearsay, I can't quite tell -- for at least over 10+ players now across the realm, IRC, and on the forums, who think these reports of IR/rule violations, while not false reports, have been purposefully done just during the time Hinamoto's character took the General position in the last 2-4 weeks, because this person (not necessarily a Titan or Staff, just a regular joe player who wants to take Hinamoto and his characters down OOCly) has some kind of beef with the player and/or Hinamoto's characters.  What's their motivation?  There's no way to really find out in this case, with the Titan system keeping the Complainer/Reporter anonymous, it can't be checked out with the public/community/realm players if the person complaining/reporting has an actual personal OOC conflict (or even legit IC conflict) with another player or their characters at some point in the past, or in the present. 

But what if it was someone out with a personal vendetta?  For whatever reasons they are, it is possible.  This is a PvP game, after all, it's about fighting against, and with, other people who control in-game characters in the Battlemaster world, going head-to-head in politics, actual military battles between player-controlled armies, and somewhere along the way there's that chance someone, somewhere, got pissed off at someone else.  It could be the real human being someone is pissed off at, or how their characters have come to act or behave over time.  But that's not something to bother explaining further, because I'm confident all of us here know that's quite likely in game like this, has already happened in the community before, even.  It was a reminder however, so that what I say next has some context.

If someone had a bone to pick with another player, and/or their characters, their target being a fairly well-known player/character in the realm OOC/IC, and also happened to have a gained General position recently, complete with a string of victories, success, and good coordination as a General character -- they could use the Titan system to purposefully report the player/character at every chance there was a valid opportunity -- not only to help 'enforce' the IR and rules, but also in gambling that if there was a guilty verdict, it would help undermine and add additional stress/tension/guilt to that other player and their characters, especially during an already stressful time period coordinating and controlling a character who is a heavily involved, military General, of the realm, in the middle of a really edge-of-your-seat war.

Is it the person's fault for breaking IRs and rules that could be (and was in this case) reported by others, resulted in guilty verdicts, public Titan warnings and 1-day account locks --  Even when they could have been more careful to not even go close to breaking any IRs/rules, while managing a military General character in the middle of an intensive war they were putting lots of their own personal spirit into?  Yes, they could have been more careful.  Yes, it's their fault and responsibility for slipping up.

Is quitting/leaving the game, deleting your game account, uncalled over this recent spectacle?  Sure it could be, and it maybe is in this case.

But these things about it being a player's own fault for breaking IRs/rules (and consequently being reported, warned/ punished) isn't quite the issue at hand here, I think -- it's about possibly someone, another player (not specifically a Titan or Staff), abusing the report/complaint system to undermine their victim and characters, when that player and character(s) have invested themselves into the responsibility of military General in the middle of an important game period; coordinating an entire realm's armies, tactics and strategy of a huge war against a similarly tactical and powerful collection of enemy realms.  By undermining and submitting these reports (even though they are real IRs/rule violations the person has committed) with the anonymity of not knowing who the complainer is, or who the Titans are, it feels to a number of folks that a fellow player(s) in their own realm has done this on purpose just so the victim gets frustrated/stress-over enough that we either see their characters get deleted, demoted, removed, punished, etc, or they want to see their target delete their entire account, rage-quit, spout off OOC, get banned, punished, account-locked, and so on.

I think the above is a slightly better translation of what lots of people on Hinamoto's side have been trying to express about this entire incident with the Titans and what Hinamoto himself has been trying to express -- IR's and rules were broken, warnings, verdicts and punishment were doled out as deemed fit by the Titans.  But someone, or a group of people, may have been using Hinamoto's slip-ups to purposefully launch a barrage of reports/complaints against him in such a short time period of one month, in order to lay on additional layer of stress/tension on top of all the work and effort of putting his own passion and energy into playing the strategy/war part of the game through a military General character, that he had just recently taken up with his character(s), in this same month/time period.

Folks aren't accusing the Titans/Devs/Staff themselves for personally targeting Hinamoto (and thus they aren't angry for that particular reason), they are suspicious and angry that someone might have used the Titans system for a personal OOC attack/vendetta, with it's safety of anonymity for the Complainer (who is misusing the Titan System to OOCly attack/harass someone, even if what they are reporting is a valid violation/complaint) and the anonymity for the Titans -- and then the Titans (by mistake) not realizing this and still passing the guilty verdict, public realm-wide warnings, and 1-day account lock without any indication or even remorse/sympathetic acknowledgement that this, given the context of the war, the player's past track record, personality and actual behavior, was being abused at all by the complaining/reporting party as a targeted OOC attack at an important and already stressful time for the player, even if the violations reported are actual rules broken that needed to be warned/punished for.

As it stands, with the Titan system currently preserving the anonymous identity of the Complainer, and the anonymity of the Titans passing judgement, it's tough for folks to see what hope they have in seeing their possible conspiracy theories/suspicions/hunches/gut feelings proven wrong.  Seeing someone get a public realm-wide warning, with a blaring yellow message background, for the first time since the Magistrates System was announced as closed, with the verdict-kind of concluding posts/text we saw in the old Magistrates System (but without knowing who the Complainer is, who the people deciding the judgement are this time around) -- I think those things are part of the reasons why Hinamoto, at least 8-10 players OOC in the realm, and 1-2 others here on the forums have all expressed some form of anger, disgruntlement, disapproval, suspicion, concern, and worry.  People can appeal after, but... the public verdict made about someone is already out there, shaming or not, it's a public message/warning about someone who broke the rules/IRs, and folks have reacted as they have in this situation.

Is that the way people are? Over-sensitive, unrealistic, short-sighted and more?  Should they just be dismissed as overreacting, obsessive conspiracy theorists?  I could agree with that in some cases, but for this one, I've personally played a character for about the same number of years with Hinamoto's characters in the same realm, and while he definitely may have dug himself into this in regards to the IR/rules he has broken, the anger/frustration/disapproval people are expressing across the realm in-game, and on the forums/IRC (just 1-3 on IRC and the forums total, but in the realm there's definitely has been at least 6-8+ I think) might just indicate this isn't just a clear-cut case of someone violating the IRs/rules, getting pissed about being punished, then rage-quitting.  There's maybe more to it, like someone (not specifically a Titan/Staff) actually trying to pull the strings of the Titan System to carry out an OOC attack against someone else, especially at this coincidental time when that player and his character(s) are helping a realm in leaps and bounds on the military and war font.

To re-emphasis one of things I meant to clarify through the above paragraphs; Hinamoto and other folks aren't peeved or thinking/blaming the Titans/staff themselves for trying to purposefully take him (Hinamoto) down, he and other folks are (from what I deduce) angry and suspecting some unidentified player (non-Titan, non-Staff most likely they mean to suspect) of successfully using the Titan system to degrade OOCly another player and their character(s), and then being partly angry at the Titans for letting that happen, with no apology for the specific scenario, and what so far seems to be no acknowledgement that this might or actually has happened.  Yes, Hinamoto did wrongs, but someone else might be doing wrong in this too, and folks can't identify who, validate their suspicions or invalidate them, under this current Titan system which provides anonymity to the Complainer and Titans.  This is in order to prevent a revenge witch-hunt, right? 

But what happens if someone is, and has, used the system, in this case of Hinamoto, to actually attack him and/or their characters through this complaint/report system?  Even if the complaints and reports are real violations of IRs and rules, how will anyone know if someone is, or isn't abusing it this way as part of a larger OOC attack (Especially one that targets a player/character who is quite involved with the military mechanics and coordination of the realm and other players)?  If someone does abuse it, how will they found out?  How will the targeted player and realm who received the public Titan verdicts and warnings ever know that person being reported/complained about is part of a larger OOC attack to deprive the realm of an important character/player, even if he/she is guilty of IRs violations and player complaints?  These are some of the feelings/frustration, I think, that is part of the brimming overflow of OOC sentiments that people, in Sirion, in-game, have been trying to express, right from the first public Titan verdict, to even a day now after Hinamoto deleted his account.  There was at least another 10-14+ OOC messages from at least 7-8+ different players after Hinamoto deleted his account.  The realm ruler and maybe one other player tried to remind people to take the OOC discussion to the emails provided by the Titan announcements (titan@battlemaster.org, tom@battlemaster.org), or to head to the forums, but that still didn't help until the final turn of that day rolled and things finally seemed to settle down on the grey message front.

Are these ungrateful expectations and inappropriate thanks towards the Staff/Titans/Developers?  Should people on Hinamoto's side be feeling this way?  Are they even feeling that way for sure?  Is quitting/deleting an account just being being a hothead in this scenario?  Should the public guilty verdicts announced to the realm have been done that way?  Is there a better solution available?  Would a different solution be more appropriate and healthy for the game to implement than what we have now?  You'll get answers that range all over the place.  But it's quite clear that no matter what answers to those questions anyone might come up with, the fact remains: Something about this entire incident is aggravating/upsetting/has created an uncomfortable/unsettling feeling for a good portion of folks, especially in the Sirion in-game realm message channel.  Are they just pissed off and angry that they lost a capable General and military character in the middle of a war?  The answer to that might/might not make their concerns, reactions, and opinions less appropriate (or relevant), but it still doesn't change the fact that they are feeling those feelings, and for at least 5-8+ players now, have also continued to express those feelings/concerns/opinions/thoughts in a flood of OOC messages the same day Hinamoto deleted his account.  Even after being warned to take OOC outside of the game to the forums/email/etc.

I'm don't plan to post again on this, because I'm not that good at debating, or expressing stuff in a debating/prove your point is right over others and provide cohesive evidence way/or prove this and that argument is false because of X, Y, Z reasons that support your own claims, etc.  This took me a few hours to write, probably started 2-4 hours ago, when the last post was this one:  (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5699.msg128837.html#msg128837).  I apologize for not updating the rest of this post for those.  It's a lot of work and as much effort as this was for me to write all this, I am a little tired to go back to incorporate the latest responses into this post properly.

I have read them though and feel that there are the responses for the most part well worth considering and reading -- they tackle maybe in better words some of the similar things I have been trying to say here about how people are feeling about all this, where the anger/frustration is really coming from and directed at, and so on.

I'm sorry to say I can't offer any changes/improvements that sound great to me, and that would be acceptable without treading over the 'This has already been tried before and it didn't work' territory. 

Hopefully for those that read this entire wall of text, you might have a little bit better of an understanding of where folks like Hinamoto really are coming from, what some folks are (possibly) really frustrated and angry at, and some of the collective sentiments, opinions, and thoughts I have tried to compile out of a combination of all all the OOC messages about the incident from the in-game realm channel these last days, from the discussions and talks I've witnessed/had in the Battlemaster IRC channels/network, and from the relevant forum threads posted in the last day or so stemming from this entire scenario that has unfolded.

I assume the developers/staff/titans have direct access to the actual game logs for investigating things, but if anyone does want to see an actual screenshot for screenshot of the messages over the last 30 days this incident took place from my character's inbox, I have taken screenshots of all of it should anyone want to try and get a exact feeling for how many, and what kind of OOC 'suspicions/disapproval/disagreement' messages people were writing about.  I'll be waiting until a significant amount of time has passed before being willing to share these screenshots if anyone does ask for them, I'm thinking another month or so, but if anyone at some point afterwards does want to have these as reference or to do your own research into this entire affair, I can provide them.  If the Staff/Titans/Developers/Tom inform me at any point this is illegal, inappropriate, not allowed, even if I wait X amount of time so that most of the information is outdated and irrelevant to current IG events, then I won't be giving them out, at all.

Thanks for reading.  Don't expect me to respond back here, but if you'd like to directly let me know about something (like a mistake I made in my logic/explanation/writing or anything like that), or request some information (that I'm allowed to provide), etc, you can contact me through the Battlemaster IRC Channel, I usually hang out there, or even send me a private message here on the forums (I'll try to respond to that but I don't use the BM forums too often, but it should send my email account a notification and I'll be reminded to check in and respond to you through PM then).

(EDIT: Moldy Smidglez, I feel like I wrote a book after re-reading all this. This is why I feel uncomfortable posting on the forums, partly. Beejeesus!)

[Chenier]

Nearly every single Magistrate report caused more acrimony with the public flamewars they spawned than it calmed people's fears that they were being unjustly judged.

I think one thing that's very, very important to remember here is that for violations of the IR (and most clear-cut Social Contract violations), there is no valid defense. There can be no justification for ordering (or requesting) someone to log in at a different time, not go to a tournament, or recruit a different type of unit. So offering the accused player a chance to defend themselves is pointless. If the Titans feel that, on the evidence, the accused player is guilty, there is literally nothing that the player can say that can change that.

Really now? It seems to me that you just locked a guy for something that Tom has just explicitly stated wasn't actually against the rules.

Come on, now. You know full well that a lot of cases aren't clear-cut, black-and-white violations of the rules as they are written. Sometimes they seem to be clearly against the spirit of the rule, but not the wording per say. Rare were the magistrate cases that could reach a unanimous verdict in less than three days, I doubt it's all that much easier for the titans.

Did the Magistrate cases drag on? Yes. Was there a lot of impertinent discussion? Yes. But the complaint was rarely enough to make a proper decision. Follow-up messages allowed the magistrates to make up their mind, and I know I personally often had a strong impression from the complaint, only to be swayed the other way with the follow-up.

[stuartalexmc]

I'm going to start off by saying I've only recently started playing on EC and from what I can see the atmosphere is rather pleasant. That being said I think that this matter has been blown out of all proportion.

The main problems with the Titnens from my perspective are three fold:

•    You do not know your accuser – This is a fundamental flaw in my opinion as the right to know your accuser is fundamental to any fair trial or investigation. In America I believe it's the 6th Amendment.
  
     You have no rebuttal – That is there is no chance for the accused to present his case to the Titans before judgment is passed.  Therefore you do not allow the defendant any chance to present his case and any mitigating circumstances before Judgment.
     
     There is no transparency – This is fairly self-explanatory. The Titans are not accountable to anyone who plays the game; this may not be the case but when proceedings and arguments are held behind closed doors with no explanation of the methodology or reasoning behind a ruling you give credence to this argument.   

Personally I did not like the Magistrates as they were but I detest the idea of a 'KGB' style secret police with no apparent accountability. You will never be able to make everyone happy but I fear you will lose more players than this if reform is not made.        

[Anaris]

This is getting wildly out of hand. Let me put my "Tom's Mouthpiece" hat on for a minute, since I'm 99.5% sure he would say exactly the same thing in this instance:

The Titans are and will remain a secret body. BattleMaster is not a democracy, and any comparisons to a Star Chamber or the KGB miss the two vitally important points that first this is a game, and the absolute worst that can happen to you is being removed from the game, and second, every single person is here because they choose to be, giving their free time and getting nothing in return.

The default alternative to the Titans is not an open system like the Magistrates: that has been shown to cause more problems than it solves. The alternative is a tyranny in which complaints go to one person, the speed with which they are addressed is entirely based on that one person's activity level, and the justice with which they are handled is entirely based on what one person's mood at the time. Some of you seem to be under the mistaken impression that the secrecy of the Titans is something new. It is not. The Titans have been set up this way since they were first formed in 2005, as a better way of resolving disputes and punishing rule breakers than just having Tom do it all himself.

There can be changes in the rules governing the Titans, and as I have said, I am open to suggestions that will reduce the frustration inherent in the process; however, the Titans are not, and will never be, equivalent to a court of law in any country. There will not be attorneys and juries and presentation of evidence on both sides. There will not be a higher court to appeal to if you dislike their judgement, save for Tom himself.

The Titans are people Tom and I trust to uphold the rules with impartiality, and with justice tempered by a certain amount of mercy. If you do not trust our judgement in this, then I am telling you now that you will not be able to trust our judgement in anything—not what features to implement, not how to code the game, and not whether or not to use our dev and admin powers to advance a personal agenda. If we wanted to abuse those powers in the ways that are being suggested now, I guarantee you flat-out you would have no chance to win, and either you would know instantly that we didn't like you (because your account would just be locked)...or you would not have any idea that anything was happening until long after you lost the war. (Whatever war. I don't even know what war is supposedly involved in this conspiracy.)

And now, I'm going to take that hat off, and put on my Moderator hat.

This thread has devolved into ugly accusations, insults, and flames. I won't go through and delete or cleanse any posts for now, but I am putting all posters on notice from here on that the thread will be strictly moderated, especially for tone, and any post that is not respectful—including any post that accuses devs, admins, or Titans of abusing their position, now or in a hypothetical future—will be removed, and the poster given a warning.

[Anaris]

I would like to clarify one more thing, since I think it's something that many people have been missing or misunderstanding.

A lot of people have been upset about things like the fact that they can't "face their accuser." As I have already said, the Titans are not, and were never intended to be, set up like a court of law, with two equal adversaries. They are set up much more like a grievance board that takes testimony from whistleblowers.

If the person who filed every Titan report was known, it would be all too easy for people who blatantly and willfully violated the Inalienable Rights—people who knew that what they were doing was wrong, but either didn't expect to get caught or thought it would be worth it—to subtly discriminate against them in future. This is very similar to the reasons why the Inalienable Rights are set up to be very broad and take into account requests and suggestions as well as outright orders.

The people most likely to have their Inalienable Rights violated are newer players, less confident in themselves, with fewer friends in-game and less ability to fight against a Ruler or General who want to micromanage their realm. Thus, it is vitally important that the rights themselves and the body charged with enforcing them be set up to ensure that such players will be protected as absolutely as possible from negative consequences of their reports—as long as their reports do not become abusive. (If that happens, it's really not hard for the Titans to see it, and I can assure you that they will be dealt with accordingly.)

I hope that this, combined with the issues caused by the Magistrates' public nature, will make it clear why the secrecy of the Titans will not be changed.

[Buffalkill]

I haven't noticed anyone here accusing anyone of abusing their position, though I admit I didn't read all of Tel's opus.  :P 


I have very little doubt that this system will change. Why? I work in dispute resolution and I've seen all the classic blunders that quasi-judicial bodies make (with the best intentions) and this is among the most common. It never works.

[Zakilevo]

I haven't noticed anyone here accusing anyone of abusing their position, though I admit I didn't read all of Tel's opus.  :P 


I have very little doubt that this system will change. Why? I work in dispute resolution and I've seen all the classic blunders that quasi-judicial bodies make (with the best intentions) and this is among the most common. It never works.

The magistrate type system won't work either. There is no perfect and simple solution.

[Buffalkill]

The magistrate type system won't work either. There is no perfect and simple solution.

The magistrate system was flawed but it worked better than this will.

[trying]

I just want to see the evidence and maybe a highlight of which part they had problems with.

[Blue Star]

.... Fine I will break my silence, this is getting rather bothersome, seeing OOC ruin this game for so many.

Get it together...

If you want people to recruit a certain way do not order them to do so!

1. Make the message a request and to the entire realm
2. In the message state your thoughts on the unit that could be of use for the realm.
3. Simply state as the follows


*Request*
Nobles,

I believe archer units could greatly benefit our forces, and cut down our foes before we meet them, head on with our forces. Anyone who has a Archer unit or would like to get them let the treasury know we will assist in increasing your archer unit. It would greatly benefit the realm in the upcoming battle. Everyone with Infantry/Calvary/SF we need to make sure we have enough after the Archer cut them down. Please also send a request also and we will take care of your funding as well. After we've recruited a strong enough force rally in [Enter location]. Marshal's please remind your army's after turn change to send in their request.

Signed,

Average Joe
Lion General
Butter Rebellion

4. Note this is in no way a Order or a "Not a Order", it gives the choice to the Player and just places a thoughtful idea in those who would like to do so for a archer unit. It can be phrased a few different ways. Though it must be delicate as we are not suppose to push players to recruit a certain way.

5. Wonder what i'll have for lunch today ::)

[Zakilevo]

Also this is unacceptable:

*request from general

Sir Archer,

If you recruit infantry instead of archers, we will give you more gold.

You will still get gold however. If you want to switch over let me know.

[Wolfsong]

Actually, I've seen Tom post somewhere before that things like that (offering gold if people will change their unit type) are perfectly legitimate.