East Continent OOC/Titans Issue

[Hinamoto]

Just for the record, the lock was of no importance to me. The report before that one went public and as soon as that happened, i mailed Tom. Happened again over that ooc and quitted.

But what made me feel bad was the public harm to my reputation. The rest is just decoration.

[Buffalkill]

I didnt started this topic, but i hope it gets closed.

There is nothing else to add and nothing else to say. I have a deep admiration for the ones behind this game because they are constantly taking care of it without asking anything in return and i dont want to put anyone between the sword and the wall, i want to clarify that in this topic i just stood for my convinctions as a player and as a person.

I have done wrong in some aspects and i have apologised to the ones i considered i had to, and got the reply i was expecting from the only person i cared to get a reply from.

Whatever that can be said here, wont help to solve the situation so i reafirm my statement that this thread should be closed.

I hope that my case helps to improve the game or have fresh ideas and i really hope you all keep having fun.

To my friends or those who liked to play around me, who knows, maybe our paths crosses again sometime  ;)

Regards,

Very gracious. It takes a big man to take responsibility for his faults. I'd shake you hand if I could. :)

Out of curiosity, how does OOC attacking people and, essentially, calling them cowards for reporting you preserve OOC fun? Because from what's been said here, that's what you got the one day lock for, not the IR issues.

This is a needless provocation. He was punished, he apologized, and he said he doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

[Buffalkill]

P.S. Please come back to the game. You'd fit right in in Asylon (Dwilight).

[Zakilevo]

Thanks to post that i didnt recalled what i said. I was not trying to pick a fight but lure that person into showing himself so i can understand why that person was reporting me and take action with whoever should be informed about a player with an OOC beef towards me.

By the way, i was wrong in saying that OOC realm wide, but what the message contains is 110% true. And taking that as real insult is for someone very suceptible. I had way bigger argues with the Fleishers/Flockharts with way more things said than that.

That is the whole point of anonymity of complainer I think. To give them the protection from people who want to pick a fight. I can't imagine you being all nice to the complainer from seeing your reaction. Your ooc letter looked pretty angry. Sure you were trying to 'lure' this person out but you could have kindly asked the person to contact you instead. Also, insults are insult because whoever was on the receiving end felt insulted. It doesn't matter you think it isn't an insult. Whoever saw that felt insulted and only that matters. People react differently to different things. You can't expect everyone to act in a cool and calm manner.

As for IR, I think they should be very clear so people don't end up with their own versions of IR. The titans seem to punish whoever go near IR but some of them are too closely related to the game meaning for some of them there is a very thin line between not violating IR and violating it. In my opinion, something that punishes people hard should always be very clear.

[vonGenf]

What about the other 3-4 reports before that one? I got the day lock because of the accumulation of reports at least that was what the comment said.

What 3-4 additional reports? There were only 2 reports shared realm-wide, including this one.

[Disturbedyang]

This is a perfect example of ... nothing. There are demonstrated and proven ways to encourage unit type selection out of your nobility without breaking the rules. I understand that Sirion does this quite well. Perdan does this effectively (or, did while I was there, and I think they probably still do), and Darka did, too. When I was general of Darka, I received a few messages from rival generals asking how we got nearly all of our nobles to lead infantry, instead of archers/cavalry. In Perdan and Darka, we did it 100% legitimately, without violating any IRs.

You *can* provide guidance and influence the choices your nobles make without violating the IRs.

* Sending general messages to the realm stating that it would be best if the army was 2/3rds inf and 1/3 archers as opposed to the 50/50 split it is now, is OK.
* Offering a 300 gold bonus for every archer leader that dumps his unit and recruits infantry is OK.
* Offering a 50 gold/week or 100 gold/refit subsidy for every infantry unit is OK.
* Sending generic realm-wide or army-wide messages stating the armies need more infantry is OK.

* Sending personal requests to individual archer leaders asking/telling them to switch to infantry ... not OK. (Unless they PMed you firs,t asking for recommendations on unit type. If they ask you first, then you are free to make personal recommendations.)


I cannot stress enough that it is absolutely possible to be a general/marshal and never break the IRs. There is never a valid reason to break the IRs. Period. If you think that breaking the IRs from time to time is a requirement of being a good general, then you just reinforce how, IMNSHO, a realm-wide warning was absolutely appropriate.

I have just one question, so what was the letter that Ryu sent that got him the 'warning'? It seems to me the previously attached ones are perfectly valid. He asked his marshals to try to ask ppl to get certain type of units. So it really depends on how the marshal does it, isn't it? He didn't specifically asked anyone to do just that.

[Hinamoto]

What 3-4 additional reports? There were only 2 reports shared realm-wide, including this one.

There were other reports before the first realm wide one about recruiting specific unit types.

[Tom]

The magistrate system was flawed but it worked better than this will.

Are you kidding me?

It often took months to come to a conclusion, at which time nobody clearly remembered what the problem had been in the first place, and the resulting verdicts were not any less controversial.

Your definition of "worked better" is quite daring.

[Tom]

Problem with IRs are they are not set in stone.

Wrong. They are set in stone.

Some people interpret in a different way and that may cause confusion among people.

Their interpretation doesn't matter. In the end, my interpretation matters. Interpreting IRs does not invalidate them, the wiki even explicitly says so.

Not to an individual. You can never request someone to change their unit type, especially as general and marshal.

All of this is just the specific kind of lawyer-arguing that I hate. The IR is not about how you write your text, it is about your intention. No, not even that. It is about what a right of the recipient. He can recruit any unit type he wants to.

So no matter what you say or how you say it, if you respect, allow and not penalize the choice of unit type, you are fine. If you do, you are not. There is no gray area. The only gray we have is that we are not mind readers and don't know your intentions, we only know your words.

[Tom]

Reporting ANYTHING to the titans should be when situation is completely out of control, when a person is so frantic that really makes other people get frustrated or sad or really ruins other person fun.

I agree, but we cannot control other people.

I recall Galmel getting light bolted for stating that no one should assist a tournament in an enemy realm, wtf is that? He didnt ordered !@#$, he just stated something completely logical and got light bolted probably by the same lower mind that reported me.

With absolute certainty not, because the only person who can do lighting bolts is me (and since a short time now, Tim). And that there is as clear a breaking of the IR as they come, because attending tournaments is an IR and telling people not to, in whatever words, is a direct violation.

Why my deletion brought all this attention? Exactly for that. Because now people questions the methods the owners use to solve situations,

Nonsense, you could've had a discussion without rage-quitting.

Tom, you have created a MAGNIFICENT game, you are probably brilliant, but in all honestly, that kind of thinking will not solve this game's main problem.

It also doesn't make it worse. We've had this system for almost 10 years now, and no matter what you think about it, our community is leaps and bounds above anything else I've seen, and light years ahead of things like LoL.

[Zakilevo]

The IR is not about how you write your text, it is about your intention. No, not even that. It is about what a right of the recipient. He can recruit any unit type he wants to.

So no matter what you say or how you say it, if you respect, allow and not penalize the choice of unit type, you are fine. If you do, you are not. There is no gray area. The only gray we have is that we are not mind readers and don't know your intentions, we only know your words.

I think this part clarifies a lot. Can you add this to the IR as well, Tom? Or is it already there?

It also doesn't make it worse. We've had this system for almost 10 years now, and no matter what you think about it, our community is leaps and bounds above anything else I've seen, and light years ahead of things like LoL.

You can't compare any other community with LoL. They are one of the worst communities out there... I think anything is better than LoL community.

[Eduardo Almighty]

This is very definitely acceptable, because of one specific part: recruiting infantry will get you more gold. That is not ordering or requesting a noble to change unit types, it is offering a specific incentive to do so. If the recipient had chosen to keep archers, he would still have gotten some gold, but recruiting infantry would have gotten him more. This is precisely the method Tom has recommended for years to encourage one unit type over another.

Good to know that I cannot order them, but instead, BUY them.
Much better.  8)

***

This brought me some light on how the system work: If you order someone to recruit a certain type of troop, you will be punished because there's a rule for that, and after being punished they even tell you that you were stupid and just didn't know how bypass the rule, offering gold, for example.

Also, Ryu ordered his staff to talk with their nobles to change unit, also explaining them there's a rule about it, however, no one waited to see how the Marshals would do this work. In a perfect world they would all be offering gold and whores instead of ordering, but we don't know, since Ryu was punished first and just now we really know there's a "rule" to "avoid the rule". For me, this is new and with 5k gold, I can have a realm of pure Infantry being gentle instead of being... a General.

Magic.

[Tom]

This brought me some light on how the system work: If you order someone to recruit a certain type of troop, you will be punished because there's a rule for that, and after being punished they even tell you that you were stupid and just didn't know how bypass the rule, offering gold, for example.

omg, are you for real? There's a rule for bypassing the rule? Sure there is... There's a law that says if you murder someone, you will go to jail. But there's a cool way to bypass the rule: Don't kill anyone.

The IR is that people can play the unit type they want to play. The "circumvention" involves... magic indeed... allowing them to play whatever unit type they want to play. What a loophole!

[vonGenf]

I think this part clarifies a lot. Can you add this to the IR as well, Tom? Or is it already there?

It's already there:

The inalienable rights are: (...)
Choosing which type of unit to command

[vonGenf]

Also, Ryu ordered his staff to talk with their nobles to change unit, also explaining them there's a rule about it, however, no one waited to see how the Marshals would do this work.

No, they just sent a reminder of the rule, just in case.

Considering there "three or four private warnings" prior to that, I kind of understand.