East Continent OOC/Titans Issue

[Eduardo Almighty]

Letter from Ryu Hinamoto   (24 days, 3 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in message group "General Staff" (13 recipients)

Units with less than 300 CS or less than 20 man should preset travels to Sirion city and recruit the maximum they can.

Also, we have huge amounts of archers... we need marshals to ask the people if they would switch to infantry. (OOC: remember that we cant order that because it messes with the IR.)

    In arms,
    Ryu Hinamoto
    Royal of Sirion
    Duke of Karbala
    Margrave of Karbala

What's the problem with that!? He was warning about the rules. It's likely to ask someone if he accept to leave his unit as militia. Bahh...

[Hinamoto]

I wasnt expecting for you or anyone accepting it, you never EVER accept any fault and always have something to say to back up your actions, that is something i've learn time ago.

Clearly, i accepted the responsability when logged in drunk, i dont accept the other reports that ended up in locking my account. The time frame between the reports and the processing is suspicious enough for me to believe it was done on purpose to take an in-game advantage. Since i never had a chance to know who reported me, who processed the thing and what letter was reported and not even defend myself, i will think that, as it is the most obvious.

I dont believe i have insulted anyone. Saying that a person is not "man/woman enough" to address his personal problems with me directly instead of looking whatever he can to report me, is considered an insult? Then this world became way too suceptible. Other players have cursed in the very same time frame i supposedly did and did not got reported, just me, which reafirms my belief that it was someone having a personal beef with me or trying to take me down of the game.

You believe i was rightfully punished, and that i got locked to think before writting (i got locked coincidentially 30 minutes after a sunrise turn change where i had to send very important attacking orders and that i had to be attent)and i dont agree with that. Since we have a difference in our thinking, the problem would never get solved so if you think deeply the best in this situation is what i did, delete my account and avoid the titans and the rest of the players suffer such a game hurter.

Regards,

[Anaris]

In the years since the Inalienable Rights were instituted, there have been a lot of people who have tried to get around them by saying, for instance, "I want you to recruit archers (OOC: but I can't order you to, because of the IR)". That is still a blatant violation of the IR, as stated pretty clear in the "Not Orders" section of the IR page. If you need to understand why that's a violation, it is explained right there in the page. If you don't agree that that should be a violation...sorry, it is, and it always will be. You can disagree with it all you like, but it is the rule, it has been the rule for many years now, and we're not going to change it.

Saying "Ask the people to recruit archers (but don't order it)" is an IR violation. The "punishment" given for this violation was a simple public warning. It is possible that it would have been better if the warning was private, but either way, nothing was actually done to Hinamoto, his character, or his character's family. It was a simple reminder of what the rules are, and to follow them. It was not until Hinamoto publicly complained in-game about the warning—which is, itself, forbidden; an email to Tom is the only acceptable forum for complaints about Titan decisions—and attempted to call out the person who reported him, that he was given a one-day lock.

[Anaris]

Clearly, i accepted the responsability when logged in drunk, i dont accept the other reports that ended up in locking my account. The time frame between the reports and the processing is suspicious enough for me to believe it was done on purpose to take an in-game advantage.

This is simply insulting to the Titans, to Tom, and to me. If he or I had any inkling that any Titans were doing anything of the kind, we would come down on them like a ton of bricks so fast they wouldn't know what hit them.

If you disagree with a Titan decision against you, that's understandable. If you want to appeal it to Tom, that's fine.

But do not accuse Tom, me, or the Titans of abusing the Titan system to gain some kind of advantage for one side in a war. That does not happen, has never happened, and will never happen. I can't speak for all the Titans (and wouldn't presume to speak for Tom, though I suspect I know his answer), but I take such accusations as a very personal insult.

[Hinamoto]

Titans *are* your fellow players. The people that are, quite possibly, playing in the same realms as you, and probably exchanging letters with you. They are the Titans. Your fellow players. Your last message came about a hair short of accusing them of using their Titans powers and responsibilities for their personal benefit: "...and I cannot say I trust their impartiality at all anymore." How does that show respect and trust of your fellow players?

You also blatantly stated that the Titans are unable to tell the difference between a nuisance report, and a genuine report. That they knee-jerk lock accounts at the drop of a hat.

The Titans are not perfect. They are normal, regular players just like everyone else. They can make mistakes. You need to cut them a bit of slack. Flying off the handle because your realm got a message to be careful of the IRs is a huge overreaction. IIRC, no one got locked, no one lost their positions, just told to be careful about the IRs. Is that really deserving of a realm-wide flame and rage-quit?

Pretty much that. Considering that recently there were new Titans designated, considering that in 6 years playing the very same as i was doing recently, making tons of new friends not only in my realm but in others and even in other continents, and that now all of the sudden this happens... Im sorry i am not a person that believes in coincidences, and there is way too many here.

As i stated first, i put the blame of my anger and frustration into the ones in charge of deciding who the titans are, is that you and Tom? Then its you and Tom who i blame for what i believe it was an injustice.

Regards,

[Penchant]

Pretty much that. Considering that recently there were new Titans designated, considering that in 6 years playing the very same as i was doing recently, making tons of new friends not only in my realm but in others and even in other continents, and that now all of the sudden this happens... Im sorry i am not a person that believes in coincidences, and there is way too many here.

As i stated first, i put the blame of my anger and frustration into the ones in charge of deciding who the titans are, is that you and Tom? Then its you and Tom who i blame for what i believe it was an injustice.

Regards,

So you are directly claiming that Titans, who get these reports from other people and then investigate them, did this to get an in-game advantage?

You making new friends has nothing to do with this. You breaking the rules in the past is not an excuse for you breaking the rules in the future. I always do this is not an excuse for breaking the rules.

[Hinamoto]

So you are directly claiming that Titans, who get these reports from other people and then investigate them, did this to get an in-game advantage?

You making new friends has nothing to do with this. You breaking the rules in the past is not an excuse for you breaking the rules in the future. I always do this is not an excuse for breaking the rules.

Im claiming that the reports came coincidentially with an in-game set of events. I dont believe in coincidences, and since policy is that everything remains in silent, and annonymus i am entitled to believe whatever i want to believe.

I put the 6 years example because 6 years compared to 1 week its quiet an enormous amount of time, what? there was no one monitoring this great rules violator?. I put the friends example, to prove that im not a game hurter and that most of the players interacting with me even enemies had fun or appreciated me to be someone publically etiquetted as a game hurter.

There is nothing else to discuss. Im clearly a person with a boiled temper, i never messed with anyone OOC, i've never exploited a bug in favor (in fact i most of the bugs hurted my plannings more than helping). I believe someone tried to perjudicate me, and i think i got wrongly punished. I believe my reputation was questioned and that is something that after 6 years and with my background wont tolerate.

Im done here.

[Disturbedyang]

Based on the "Updated IR Comments" by Tom, "The difference between "we could use more archers" and "everyone recruit archers" is that in the first case, nobody is pressured to do anything unless he wants to. You can agree to the statement without having to act on it. You cannot in the second case.",

It seems to be that "Also, we have huge amounts of archers... we need marshals to ask the people if they would switch to infantry." is not a lot different from it. I am viewing from a neutral point of view here, so try not to flame. I am not out to get the Titan or anyone else for that matter. I am not even in East Continent for long to know any of said characters.

What i am trying to say is that, he merely just asked the marshals to try to get more people to have infantries in their rank. Be reminded that not all of us have perfect English. The fact that he pointed out the rule showed that he has no intention of forcing it to the players. In my opinion, that particular sentence is up to your interpretation(just like religious writings).

I think the better way to deal with it would had been to serve him a fair personal warning. I do not see the point of posting it to everyone in that particular realm(is that what happened?). After all, if this is his first offense, perhaps he should not be locked(or was it for different offense?). This whole matter could had been dealt better on the Titan side. And instead of defending it over and over again, sometimes it really is better if the mod or Titans take a blame for it(Have any of you guys ever apologized for a wrong decision before?). It serves to only prove that you too believe that you are not invincible. I understand the hard work you guys have put in and i truly appreciate it. But acting like you are always right and replying that way too does not help.

Though, i do also felt that Hinamoto over-reacted. Yes, you could had felt you were misjudged, but you could had stood up for yourself a little bit different. Flaming fire with fire doesn't work. I do wish for you to comeback one way or another however, if it is true that you are a great players. Create a new account and start all over again anonymous. Nobody will know who you were - if that helps you better. Do it for the other players - not the Titans nor Tom. After all, the game is great because of all the players' contributions.

Just my 2 cents.

*Hinamoto - come join Melhed in Beluaterra. Hahaha :p

[Anaris]

I think the better way to deal with it would had been to serve him a fair personal warning. I do not see the point of posting it to everyone in that particular realm(is that what happened?). After all, if this is his first offense, perhaps he should not be locked(or was it for different offense?). This whole matter could had been dealt better on the Titan side. And instead of defending it over and over again, sometimes it really is better if the mod or Titans take a blame for it(Have any of you guys ever apologized for a wrong decision before?). It serves to only prove that you too believe that you are not invincible. I understand the hard work you guys have put in and i truly appreciate it. But acting like you are always right and replying that way too does not help.

First of all, I feel that it is important to point out that the Titans have a tendency to get all kinds of complaints, and flames, and insults, and every kind of other nastygram whenever they hand down a punishment, no matter how justified. Sometimes it's public, sometimes it's not, but people who get punished almost never accept that they broke the rules, and the punishment was justified. So right off the bat, we have a strong tendency to defensiveness in response to criticism (even on top of the general human tendency to same).

Second of all, partly because of this excessive criticism, and the number of people who already think that they're the bane of the game's very existence, it is important to do everything we can to preserve the good image of the Titans. Part of this is avoiding the perception that the Titans are prone to making mistakes all the time and that any given decision is likely to be reversed or just retracted and apologized for later.

Because of this, I don't like to second-guess Titan decisions, especially publicly. However, you're not wrong that it is also important to acknowledge when mistakes are made. Personally, I'm not sure if I would have supported making the warning public rather than private. However, I was away for the weekend, and the Titans who were here were the ones who made the decisions, and in the end, I don't believe that making the warning private would have been very likely to change the overall outcome.

[Galmel]

Based on the "Updated IR Comments" by Tom, "The difference between "we could use more archers" and "everyone recruit archers" is that in the first case, nobody is pressured to do anything unless he wants to. You can agree to the statement without having to act on it. You cannot in the second case.",

It seems to be that "Also, we have huge amounts of archers... we need marshals to ask the people if they would switch to infantry." is not a lot different from it. I am viewing from a neutral point of view here, so try not to flame. I am not out to get the Titan or anyone else for that matter. I am not even in East Continent for long to know any of said characters.

What i am trying to say is that, he merely just asked the marshals to try to get more people to have infantries in their rank. Be reminded that not all of us have perfect English. The fact that he pointed out the rule showed that he has no intention of forcing it to the players. 

I absolutely agree with this. I don't even think it has a whole lot of room for interpretation. If a troopleader had been sent this letter, that would be a whole other story, but that was not the case, marshals were sent this.

First of all, I feel that it is important to point out that the Titans have a tendency to get all kinds of complaints, and flames, and insults, and every kind of other nastygram whenever they hand down a punishment, no matter how justified. Sometimes it's public, sometimes it's not, but people who get punished almost never accept that they broke the rules, and the punishment was justified. So right off the bat, we have a strong tendency to defensiveness in response to criticism (even on top of the general human tendency to same).

I understand, and it is natural they get defensive, but that understandable response hurts dialogue, and should be avoided in the best interest of exchanging ideas on the particular situation. Also, some degrees of defensiveness can often be mistaken for mocking or plain insults, things Titans should never do. I am not saying they do, I am saying they can be taken as it by who reads them.

Second of all, partly because of this excessive criticism, and the number of people who already think that they're the bane of the game's very existence, it is important to do everything we can to preserve the good image of the Titans. Part of this is avoiding the perception that the Titans are prone to making mistakes all the time and that any given decision is likely to be reversed or just retracted and apologized for later.

Because of this, I don't like to second-guess Titan decisions, especially publicly. However, you're not wrong that it is also important to acknowledge when mistakes are made. Personally, I'm not sure if I would have supported making the warning public rather than private. However, I was away for the weekend, and the Titans who were here were the ones who made the decisions, and in the end, I don't believe that making the warning private would have been very likely to change the overall outcome.

Being constructive, I recommend you change your legitimacy strategy. If the Titans are always right, people who think they are wrong can get frustrated enough to leave, and it seems it often happens already. As Juan said, you are being singled out as breaking a rule you think you did not, and being given no room for discussion on it. And quite frankly, I doubt Tom will ever go against the Titan's decision, as that would create a whole lot of different problems of it's own.

People need to trust the Titan's judgement, but making it an obscure, back room business does not help that, moreover when there is no room for appeals.

[Indirik]

You are wrong. I got locked.

IIRC - This was for the second event, which was due to your insulting the entire realm via a very angry OOC letter following the first warning. The first event was a simple warning message sent to the realm, which was nothing more than a simple reminder to pay more attention to the IRs.

[Zakilevo]

Hinamoto,

Your problem here is that you believe you can't be wrong. Everyone can be wrong. Tom, Tim, and Titans. We are all humans and we make mistakes. The problem is that you don't believe you broke any rules. That is why you are saying words like 'injustice'. You expect others to work things out between you and whoever was offended. The problem with that is the person who feels offended by you might not want to talk to you about it either because he thinks you might hold a personal grudge against him or for other reasons.

Your friends might have overlooked the fact you broke IR (and trust me I probably broke them here and there since I learned how to lead troops in Sirion but probably didn't get reported or overlooked) but obviously someone didn't want to see you go unpunished for breaking IR.

Galmel,

If Tom sees something is wrong, he will probably point it out to the titans. If titans wrongfully or overdid their punishments, they should definitely correct their mistakes.

I think the problem comes with the ambiguity of the warning text. People can be confused which letter they sent caused them to get an warning. Some people do send a lot of letters and it is hard to keep track of everything.

[Indirik]

... moreover when there is no room for appeals.

There is always room for appeal. The message you get when you receive a warning, or any other judgment, provides explicit instructions on what to do if you think the judgment was made in error.

Sending angry OOC messages calling the other players in your realm cowards for filing Titan reports is not what the instructions say to do.

[vonGenf]

Then please make some suggestions as to how the Titans can be improved to avoid this. However, bear in mind that they will not, ever, be opened up again like the Magistrates. As has been amply stated in this thread and elsewhere, they were an experiment that failed.

The Titans will remain anonymous, and all cases will remain private until a verdict has been reached. (The verdicts and summaries of the Titans' reasoning will, as I said earlier, be posted to the Wiki when we have time to write them up.)

Please note, however, that I'm perfectly serious in my request for suggestions. I have seen a number of players quit in this manner, and it is always frustrating to me, as it seems to me like it's such a poor response to the situation—it can never help to make anything better. If there is a way to avoid that without causing worse damage to the game as a whole, I'd really like to find it.

While I understand the desire from the Titans to perform their investigation in a private manner, the Forum threads were not only useful for the investigation itself. They were a pressure valve. They allowed people to vent all that they needed to vent. If their bitterness came from msiconceptions, these misconceptions could be rectified; if it came from a felling of never being heard, they could be heard; if it was pure pettiness, they could be called on it, lest other people believe them because they only ever heard one side of the story.

I would suggest that the Titans post their reasoning prior to enforcing any punishment. If they can't find the time to do so, then it follows that the case wasn't important enough for their time; in these cases no punishment seems like the right solution.

The current was of announcing verdicts does feel heavy handed and arbitrary. I'm perfectly able to believe that none of the people involved actually wish it to feel that way, but the truth is that it is.

Justice without appearance of justice is not conducive to improve the behaviour of the public. Then it's just vengeance, even if it's objectively fair.

[vonGenf]

Since they happened all in a matter of 3 days then where was the investigation? I dont have a say in all this? I have played 6 years without a single report (And i behaved the same way, logging in drunk, etc) and all of the sudden i get like 4-5 complains right when OH WHAT A COINCIDENCE i become General again and revert a war situation from dramatically losing to massively winning?

This may have something to do with the fact that the Titans have been on hold for years, and prior to that were so inactive as to be practically on hold. They were reinstated, what, last week? It's possible that someone decided to try once again to contact concerning things that's bothered for years, just to see if they'd react this time.

Sometimes, coincidences happen.