East Continent OOC/Titans Issue

[vonGenf]

Erased quote that the original poster also erased.

[Disturbedyang]

That was written after the judgment, so don't attack the Titans for something they couldn't know at the time they acted.

No, i have never attacked anyone, Tom. I was merely suggesting or rather discussing the issues here. There are two things involved here. One, being that it seems any suggestions or discussions are treated as offensive - case in point being mine which is not true at all because i am viewing from neutral POV as i am not involved in the issue nor the realm whatsoever. Secondly, so in a way, you mentioned that the Titans where 'wrong'. I see no apologies there.

Which goes back to the point previously stated.

Based on the "Updated IR Comments" by Tom, "The difference between "we could use more archers" and "everyone recruit archers" is that in the first case, nobody is pressured to do anything unless he wants to. You can agree to the statement without having to act on it. You cannot in the second case.",

It seems to be that "Also, we have huge amounts of archers... we need marshals to ask the people if they would switch to infantry." is not a lot different from it. I am viewing from a neutral point of view here, so try not to flame. I am not out to get the Titan or anyone else for that matter. I am not even in East Continent for long to know any of said characters.

What i am trying to say is that, he merely just asked the marshals to try to get more people to have infantries in their rank. Be reminded that not all of us have perfect English. The fact that he pointed out the rule showed that he has no intention of forcing it to the players. In my opinion, that particular sentence is up to your interpretation(just like religious writings).

I think the better way to deal with it would had been to serve him a fair personal warning. I do not see the point of posting it to everyone in that particular realm(is that what happened?). After all, if this is his first offense, perhaps he should not be locked(or was it for different offense?). This whole matter could had been dealt better on the Titan side. And instead of defending it over and over again, sometimes it really is better if the mod or Titans take a blame for it(Have any of you guys ever apologized for a wrong decision before?). It serves to only prove that you too believe that you are not invincible. I understand the hard work you guys have put in and i truly appreciate it. But acting like you are always right and replying that way too does not help.

Though, i do also felt that Hinamoto over-reacted. Yes, you could had felt you were misjudged, but you could had stood up for yourself a little bit different. Flaming fire with fire doesn't work. I do wish for you to comeback one way or another however, if it is true that you are a great players. Create a new account and start all over again anonymous. Nobody will know who you were - if that helps you better. Do it for the other players - not the Titans nor Tom. After all, the game is great because of all the players' contributions.

Just my 2 cents.

*Hinamoto - come join Melhed in Beluaterra. Hahaha :p

Like i said, i do not wish to offend anyone. Merely suggesting improvements. If every suggestion is being debunked, i do not see the way to improve it in the first place.

[Indirik]

Yes there is a case, when your whole realm believes that you (leader) requesting people to get infantry instead of archers is great, and the ones been requested are happy because their General/Marshals contacted them privately requesting them something and feel great about been able to help the realm other than just moving. There you go, a perfect example.

This is a perfect example of ... nothing. There are demonstrated and proven ways to encourage unit type selection out of your nobility without breaking the rules. I understand that Sirion does this quite well. Perdan does this effectively (or, did while I was there, and I think they probably still do), and Darka did, too. When I was general of Darka, I received a few messages from rival generals asking how we got nearly all of our nobles to lead infantry, instead of archers/cavalry. In Perdan and Darka, we did it 100% legitimately, without violating any IRs.

You *can* provide guidance and influence the choices your nobles make without violating the IRs.

* Sending general messages to the realm stating that it would be best if the army was 2/3rds inf and 1/3 archers as opposed to the 50/50 split it is now, is OK.
* Offering a 300 gold bonus for every archer leader that dumps his unit and recruits infantry is OK.
* Offering a 50 gold/week or 100 gold/refit subsidy for every infantry unit is OK.
* Sending generic realm-wide or army-wide messages stating the armies need more infantry is OK.

* Sending personal requests to individual archer leaders asking/telling them to switch to infantry ... not OK. (Unless they PMed you firs,t asking for recommendations on unit type. If they ask you first, then you are free to make personal recommendations.)


I cannot stress enough that it is absolutely possible to be a general/marshal and never break the IRs. There is never a valid reason to break the IRs. Period. If you think that breaking the IRs from time to time is a requirement of being a good general, then you just reinforce how, IMNSHO, a realm-wide warning was absolutely appropriate.

[Chenier]

Yes, for a reason. I will be blunt: People are !@#$%^&s. Everyone who is involved in any kind of handing down judgement will get attacked, personally and often quite badly. Been there, done that. The intransparency is in order to protect the Titans from being abused as if they were child rapists, because nobody would do the job if that were the case.

If people who are accused and/or get punished were less like !@#$%^&s and more like adults about everything, that wouldn't be necessary. But we see time and again what the reactions are to something as omg-the-world-is-ending as a one-day account lock. !@#$storms, OOC flamewars, rage quitting, flooding the forum with personal attacks against the Titans, the Dev Team, Barack Obama and the world in general.

If it were funny if it weren't so sad.


And that is why the Titans act in secrecy, because it's not possible to do it in another way.

I have not felt, when I was a Magistrate, that I was getting any harassment whatsoever. Nor did I notice any serious attacks upon other magistrates. A few against the system as a whole, but the magistrates never needed to fear any kind of retribution. Anonymity was not required. Indeed, the only cases of the animosity you describe happening were directed against the anonymous titans, in great part because precisely they were anonymous.

That was written after the judgment, so don't attack the Titans for something they couldn't know at the time they acted.

The magistrates would never have ruled the same verdict the titans did. Why? Because we took into consideration all of the stuff that you stated over the years, and you have made this painfully clear on multiple occasions. I seem to even recall a case on the unit type IR where we ruled not guilty because of this. They SHOULD have known. The behavior their punished had been accepted for a very long time. At the very least, it was publicly stated by myself in the official case threads: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,1068.msg21203.html#msg21203

The titan system is a bad concept. It is fundamentally flawed. I get that you don't like procedure, and that this is just a game and that you don't like the legalese of a copy-court. Valid sentiments. But the reactions of the accused, under the titan system, are both completely predictable and justifiable. "What's a one-day lock?", you say? Sure, life goes on. It's not prison. It's not really much of a sanction at all. What it is is an insult. It is shame. It is hostile. Cold. Unfriendly. It is unpredictable, inexplicable, arbitrary.

[Hinamoto]

This is a perfect example of ... nothing. There are demonstrated and proven ways to encourage unit type selection out of your nobility without breaking the rules. I understand that Sirion does this quite well. Perdan does this effectively (or, did while I was there, and I think they probably still do), and Darka did, too. When I was general of Darka, I received a few messages from rival generals asking how we got nearly all of our nobles to lead infantry, instead of archers/cavalry. In Perdan and Darka, we did it 100% legitimately, without violating any IRs.

You *can* provide guidance and influence the choices your nobles make without violating the IRs.

* Sending general messages to the realm stating that it would be best if the army was 2/3rds inf and 1/3 archers as opposed to the 50/50 split it is now, is OK.
* Offering a 300 gold bonus for every archer leader that dumps his unit and recruits infantry is OK.
* Offering a 50 gold/week or 100 gold/refit subsidy for every infantry unit is OK.
* Sending generic realm-wide or army-wide messages stating the armies need more infantry is OK.

* Sending personal requests to individual archer leaders asking/telling them to switch to infantry ... not OK. (Unless they PMed you firs,t asking for recommendations on unit type. If they ask you first, then you are free to make personal recommendations.)


I cannot stress enough that it is absolutely possible to be a general/marshal and never break the IRs. There is never a valid reason to break the IRs. Period. If you think that breaking the IRs from time to time is a requirement of being a good general, then you just reinforce how, IMNSHO, a realm-wide warning was absolutely appropriate.

"These rights are OOC fun-preserving tools. They are meant to guarantee you, the player, can participate in the game properly."

IR are there for that. Having a player motivated because the general/marshal requests him something other than moving here or there might even be positive. Im sorry but what you wrote does not refute my example.

Just for the record i have barely requested anyone or even the marshals to do this but on very specific circumstances, i dont think that doing this is exclusive to be a good general, not really important to argue about that.

[Chamberlain]

Wow, 6 pages of comments over a minor breach and the responses made to that.

Unless I am missing something crucial it really seems that this is a huge storm in a very small teacup.  Hinamoto, although I appreciate your aggravation, it looks like you have massively over-reacted - furthermore it strikes me that your beef is with the players who hounded you and reported you for something which is really very open to interpretation in the first place.  As I see it like it or lump it the titans did their job in responding to someone who felt violated by your actions.  What has happened and dragged out in this forum since really seems  utterly over stated on all sides ever since.   

You were caught foul of the interpretation of the rules, it seems to me you are the only person who sees  you as bad for the game because of this, I have read little that is not in support of your excellent game play and personal character.  - Perhaps you should reflect more on the support you have had  in these forums than the few oversensitive or 'gamesy' players within your realm who saw fit to report you.

I would like to know two things from you:

Was it a rage quit?

and if it was.

Do you regret your rage quit?

[Hinamoto]

I would like to know two things from you:

Was it a rage quit?

and if it was.

Do you regret your rage quit?

It was a quit according to the actions. I got suddenly punished so i have suddenly quitted. They have told me that my quit was rushed that i should have waited to see why was all about, but i tell them the same about their actions, they should have waited and consulted me and giving me a chance to explain.

Do i regret it? Well no. While i know i have done some things wrong, i still consider that they have damaged my reputation wrongly and i havent got a single apology, so no.

Regards,

[Anaris]

It was a quit according to the actions. I got suddenly punished so i have suddenly quitted. They have told me that my quit was rushed that i should have waited to see why was all about, but i tell them the same about their actions, they should have waited and consulted me and giving me a chance to explain.

As you have already been told, and should have known perfectly well, since you're very keen to make sure we know you've been playing for 6 years, that's not the way the Titans operate. If you broke the rules, you broke the rules, and you get a punishment that is deemed appropriate. 90% of the people who have been punished over the years would, if we "consulted them and gave them a chance to explain," have dozens of reasons why what they did wasn't a violation, or if it was, why it shouldn't count.

Basically, you're asking the Titans to leave punishments up to the person being punished, and that's just obviously not going to work.

[Hinamoto]

As you have already been told, and should have known perfectly well, since you're very keen to make sure we know you've been playing for 6 years, that's not the way the Titans operate. If you broke the rules, you broke the rules, and you get a punishment that is deemed appropriate. 90% of the people who have been punished over the years would, if we "consulted them and gave them a chance to explain," have dozens of reasons why what they did wasn't a violation, or if it was, why it shouldn't count.

Basically, you're asking the Titans to leave punishments up to the person being punished, and that's just obviously not going to work.

I have been also keen to say that in those 6 years i have never been reported over anything, how should i know how the titans operate? I have always worried about the IC all the titans thing for me was a whole unknown thing, why should i worry to know? I have always played fair.

A person never reported in 6 years suddenly gets tons of protests its odd. I could have perfectly been asked about and probably prove that the intentions behind the reports are a personal beef over IC interactions or actions. Then and even when i could have messed with some of the IR (subject to interpretation) the real motive would be different than what the IR was created and that is preserve the OOC fun.

[Buffalkill]

At least give the guy an opportunity to speak to the allegations before he's convicted. Sheesh. This is supposed to be a game among friends. No game I ever played with friends involved secret proceedings. Even real whistleblower cases don't dispense with the basic principles of fairness and due process.

[Hinamoto]

I didnt started this topic, but i hope it gets closed.

There is nothing else to add and nothing else to say. I have a deep admiration for the ones behind this game because they are constantly taking care of it without asking anything in return and i dont want to put anyone between the sword and the wall, i want to clarify that in this topic i just stood for my convinctions as a player and as a person.

I have done wrong in some aspects and i have apologised to the ones i considered i had to, and got the reply i was expecting from the only person i cared to get a reply from.

Whatever that can be said here, wont help to solve the situation so i reafirm my statement that this thread should be closed.

I hope that my case helps to improve the game or have fresh ideas and i really hope you all keep having fun.

To my friends or those who liked to play around me, who knows, maybe our paths crosses again sometime  ;)

Regards,

[Velax]

Then and even when i could have messed with some of the IR (subject to interpretation) the real motive would be different than what the IR was created and that is preserve the OOC fun.

Out of curiosity, how does OOC attacking people and, essentially, calling them cowards for reporting you preserve OOC fun? Because from what's been said here, that's what you got the one day lock for, not the IR issues.

[Hinamoto]

Out of curiosity, how does OOC attacking people and, essentially, calling them cowards for reporting you preserve OOC fun? Because from what's been said here, that's what you got the one day lock for, not the IR issues.

What about the other 3-4 reports before that one? I got the day lock because of the accumulation of reports at least that was what the comment said.

[Zakilevo]

Titan Judgement - 2 days, 21 hours, 59 minutes ago
message to all nobles of Sirion
The Titans have issued a public verdict in the case against Juan Andrés Belile, the player of the Hinamoto family. The text of their verdict follows:
If there are any issues or complaints regarding Titan's decision, there is one, and only one, avenue of discussion or appeal that is acceptable: Direct email to tom@battlemaster.org or titans@battlemaster.org.

In addition, insulting other players is a violation of the Social Contract.

We suggest that you take the opportunity to step back for a day, and relax.

Doesn't look like it was due to accumulation of reports that got you a lock. They told you to cool down. Instead you exploded.

Whoever insists in constantly reporting me, you are so tiny that you need to fight me OOC because IC you are not man/woman enough to do it.

Also this is why the titans shouldn't reveal the complainer. You wanted to pick a fight with this person. I wonder how many people will either threaten/be dicks to others IC for reporting them to the titans but probably this is the main reason why the titans are protecting the identity of the complainer.

[Hinamoto]

Doesn't look like it was due to accumulation of reports that got you a lock. They told you to cool down. Instead you exploded.

Also this is why the titans shouldn't reveal the complainer. You wanted to pick a fight with this person. I wonder how many people will either threaten/be dicks to others IC for reporting them to the titans but probably this is the main reason why the titans are protecting the identity of the complainer.

In addition, insulting other players is a violation of the Social Contract.

Thanks to post that i didnt recalled what i said. I was not trying to pick a fight but lure that person into showing himself so i can understand why that person was reporting me and take action with whoever should be informed about a player with an OOC beef towards me.

By the way, i was wrong in saying that OOC realm wide, but what the message contains is 110% true. And taking that as real insult is for someone very suceptible. I had way bigger argues with the Fleishers/Flockharts with way more things said than that.