East Continent OOC/Titans Issue

[Buffalkill]

Are you kidding me?

It often took months to come to a conclusion, at which time nobody clearly remembered what the problem had been in the first place, and the resulting verdicts were not any less controversial.

Your definition of "worked better" is quite daring.

No, realistic. People will always disagree with the verdict, but there are ways to improve the magistrate system without throwing out what was good about it. You will lose more players this way, and the verdicts will be more controversial, not less.

[Anaris]

The thing is, with the Titan system, for every 1 verdict that is controversial, there will be a half-dozen that no one even bats an eyelash at. Every single Magistrate case, in contrast, blows up into a huge brouhaha, because the accused and all his friends, and the complainer and all his friends, think that "winning" the argument on the forum board means winning the case.

[Zakilevo]

The thing is, with the Titan system, for every 1 verdict that is controversial, there will be a half-dozen that no one even bats an eyelash at. Every single Magistrate case, in contrast, blows up into a huge brouhaha, because the accused and all his friends, and the complainer and all his friends, think that "winning" the argument on the forum board means winning the case.

This. Also, Magistrate cases didn't help people vent their frustration. It fueled the fire instead.

[Buffalkill]

The thing is, with the Titan system, for every 1 verdict that is controversial, there will be a half-dozen that no one even bats an eyelash at. Every single Magistrate case, in contrast, blows up into a huge brouhaha, because the accused and all his friends, and the complainer and all his friends, think that "winning" the argument on the forum board means winning the case.

How is this thread not a huge brouhaha?[size=80%] [/size]Just let them argue. If they're wrong, then their arguments will fall flat. They may still disagree with the verdict, but at least they will have been allowed to speak their peace. If people thought the Magistrates system was flawed, making it secret is not going to dispel those doubts.

[Anaris]

How is this thread not a huge brouhaha?

I didn't say it wasn't. However, it is the first major case since the reconstitution of the Titans, so it's not a huge surprise.

Just let them argue.

No.

You know we have rules against flamewars on this forum for a reason, right?

If they're wrong, then their arguments will fall flat.

Whether they're right or wrong, it perpetuates a negative atmosphere that drives people away from the game.

They may still disagree with the verdict, but at least they will have been allowed to speak their peace.

I don't see why you think that will help. In my experience, the fact that they told you why he obviously had to be innocent, but you still found him guilty, will make them even more angry afterwards.

Furthermore, there's been some research coming out within the past decade that shows pretty strongly that the "catharsis" we humans feel when we vent our anger doesn't actually reduce stress, anger, or anything else. On the contrary, it makes us more likely to get angry again later, and seek to vent that anger again. This is not the kind of thing we want to be encouraging.

If people thought the Magistrates system was flawed, making it secret is not going to dispel those doubts.

Again, you persist in treating the Titans as if they're some kind of new version of the Magistrates, only with secrecy. I've already told you that's not the case: the Titans have existed, with more secrecy and less openness than they have now, for nearly a decade.

Furthermore, you seem to be taking our statement that the Magistrates were a failed experiment as meaning that "people thought it was flawed." That's not the case. It failed because it made the atmosphere worse with all the bitter OOC arguments. I don't believe the general attitude toward the Magistrates was significantly different than that toward the Titans.

[Blue Star]

Good to know that I cannot order them, but instead, BUY them.
Much better.  8)

***

This brought me some light on how the system work: If you order someone to recruit a certain type of troop, you will be punished because there's a rule for that, and after being punished they even tell you that you were stupid and just didn't know how bypass the rule, offering gold, for example.

Also, Ryu ordered his staff to talk with their nobles to change unit, also explaining them there's a rule about it, however, no one waited to see how the Marshals would do this work. In a perfect world they would all be offering gold and whores instead of ordering, but we don't know, since Ryu was punished first and just now we really know there's a "rule" to "avoid the rule". For me, this is new and with 5k gold, I can have a realm of pure Infantry being gentle instead of being... a General.

Magic.

Are you and Hinamoto new to the game all of a sudden? Serious i'm shocked this is even still being warranted because this is a issue that was resolved long before the war island left and Dwilight was made, hell the loop holes were much more rampant back in 03-05, this is the last remaining one I can drum up that is still being used and is viable.

Now for Hinamoto, you made a mistake thank you for acknowledging it, do you really need to continue this show? Your rage delete/quit, by my standards are considered to be 2-3 days after such a conflict occurs. Seems to be a mistake, we all get fed up, our actions are on our own.

I don't often side on issue that are such well popular, but the real issue is that we need to let people know that this is a game that we play and we play with one another, play as if with friends and don't take everything so personal.

Note* Anyone who thinks Tom is attempting to benefit off of such action I believe you truly do not know how much effort that guy has put in to make this game enjoyable, same goes to Anaris, and the other who still lurk.

[Buffalkill]

I didn't say it wasn't. However, it is the first major case since the reconstitution of the Titans, so it's not a huge surprise.

This is the first, and it will only get worse.

You know we have rules against flamewars on this forum for a reason, right?

Argument does not equal flamewar.

Whether they're right or wrong, it perpetuates a negative atmosphere that drives people away from the game.

This system will do exactly that and more effectively.

I don't see why you think that will help. In my experience, the fact that they told you why he obviously had to be innocent, but you still found him guilty, will make them even more angry afterwards.

The accused in this case quit the game after 6 years. There's no greater expression of anger than that. Despite acknowledging that he acted inappropriately, it was the de-humanized process that made him want to leave.

Furthermore, there's been some research coming out within the past decade that shows pretty strongly that the "catharsis" we humans feel when we vent our anger doesn't actually reduce stress, anger, or anything else. On the contrary, it makes us more likely to get angry again later, and seek to vent that anger again. This is not the kind of thing we want to be encouraging.

Some research? Give me any point of view and I'll find you a research paper on EBSCOHost to support and refute it. But that's really not the point. You're equating open debate and due process with venting and catharsis, which, with all respect, is a Grand Canyon sized generalization.

Again, you persist in treating the Titans as if they're some kind of new version of the Magistrates, only with secrecy. I've already told you that's not the case: the Titans have existed, with more secrecy and less openness than they have now, for nearly a decade.

It doesn't matter which one came first.

Furthermore, you seem to be taking our statement that the Magistrates were a failed experiment as meaning that "people thought it was flawed." That's not the case. It failed because it made the atmosphere worse with all the bitter OOC arguments. I don't believe the general attitude toward the Magistrates was significantly different than that toward the Titans.

It didn't fail because of being ineffective, it failed because you (the devs team) decided to dismantle it instead of improving it. It's like never changing the oil in your car, driving it into a ditch, and saying "see, I told you it was a piece of !@#$!"

[Buffalkill]

Note* Anyone who thinks Tom is attempting to benefit off of such action I believe you truly do not know how much effort that guy has put in to make this game enjoyable, same goes to Anaris, and the other who still lurk.

I don't think I've heard anyone accusing them of that. I hear them repeatedly complain as though they were being accused by everyone and their dog on an hourly basis, but who is really cares?

[Anaris]

This is the first, and it will only get worse.

This system will do exactly that and more effectively.

[citation needed]

The accused in this case quit the game after 6 years. There's no greater expression of anger than that. Despite acknowledging that he acted inappropriately, it was the de-humanized process that made him want to leave.

He overreacted. It happens. Some people just can't handle the idea that they can actually be called to account for their actions. I will not, however, accept the blame for that, either on my own behalf or that of the Titans.

Some research? Give me any point of view and I'll find you a research paper on EBSCOHost to support and refute it. But that's really not the point. You're equating open debate and due process with venting and catharsis, which, with all respect, is a Grand Canyon sized generalization.

You're the one equating the Magistrates or Titans with due process, not me. No one ever said they were, should be, or ever would be the equivalent of a court in any country in the world.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I said exactly the opposite.

Furthermore, you're also the one who has been claiming that allowing people to argue, and get it all out, is helpful. I'm not sure why that's supposed to be the case if not for catharsis. If I've misunderstood your meaning, though, I do apologize.

It didn't fail because of being ineffective, it failed because you (the devs team) decided to dismantle it instead of improving it. It's like never changing the oil in your car, driving it into a ditch, and saying "see, I told you it was a piece of !@#$!"

Buffalkill, the exact things that you are claiming make it superior are the things we believe made it a failure.

Unless I'm deeply misunderstanding you, there is no possible way to reconcile our points of view, and create a system that will satisfy our requirements and yours. So I'm really not sure that there's much point in continuing this.

[Anaris]

I don't think I've heard anyone accusing them of that. I hear them repeatedly complain as though they were being accused by everyone and their dog on an hourly basis, but who is really cares?

Hinamoto was accusing us of exactly that. He stated, repeatedly, that he felt that the "coincidence" in timing of him having just become General and turned around a war, and then getting punished (with a warning) by the Titans for the first time, could not possibly have been anything but a conspiracy against him.

And he's not the first to make accusations like that, either. Many people seem to feel that when they are punished for wrongdoing, those punishing them must have a vested interest in their downfall.

[Buffalkill]

Hinamoto was accusing us of exactly that. He stated, repeatedly, that he felt that the "coincidence" in timing of him having just become General and turned around a war, and then getting punished (with a warning) by the Titans for the first time, could not possibly have been anything but a conspiracy against him.

And he's not the first to make accusations like that, either. Many people seem to feel that when they are punished for wrongdoing, those punishing them must have a vested interest in their downfall.

He was clearly talking about his accuser(s) who he believes brought a disingenuous complaint against him for IG advantage. I have no opinion on that, but that's what Hinamoto believes. The only thing he accused the devs of, is creating the Titan system, which he believes his IG adversaries used against him. He never said that you, Anaris, and you, Tom, personally went after him. I think he made that pretty clear.

[Buffalkill]

He overreacted. It happens. Some people just can't handle the idea that they can actually be called to account for their actions. I will not, however, accept the blame for that, either on my own behalf or that of the Titans.

He's responsible for his actions, and he said so repeatedly. But you also said that the Magistrates system failed because it drove ppl away from the game. If ppl rage quitted during or after a Magistrate case, it doesn't mean the Magistrate system per se drove them away. It can just as easily be attributed to the conflict that preceded the Magistrate case, or that they perceive the rules to be unfair.

You're the one equating the Magistrates or Titans with due process, not me. No one ever said they were, should be, or ever would be the equivalent of a court in any country in the world.

I use the term loosely sometimes. It just means procedural fairness.

Furthermore, you're also the one who has been claiming that allowing people to argue, and get it all out, is helpful. I'm not sure why that's supposed to be the case if not for catharsis. If I've misunderstood your meaning, though, I do apologize.

No. I never said anything about catharsis or venting. I said people, especially when they're being accused of wrongdoing, should be allowed to say their peace before a judgement is made and a punishment imposed. It has nothing to do with a court of law. I use the same principle when I punish my kids or fire an employee, not to make them happy about it, but because fairness demands it.

Buffalkill, the exact things that you are claiming make it superior are the things we believe made it a failure.

Unless I'm deeply misunderstanding you, there is no possible way to reconcile our points of view, and create a system that will satisfy our requirements and yours. So I'm really not sure that there's much point in continuing this.

So we disagree, and yet the sky didn't fall. Weird. ;)  I don't expect you to be seduced by my reasoning about this or about anything. But there's no harm debating ideas.

[Penchant]

He was clearly talking about his accuser(s) who he believes brought a disingenuous complaint against him for IG advantage. I have no opinion on that, but that's what Hinamoto believes. The only thing he accused the devs of, is creating the Titan system, which he believes his IG adversaries used against him. He never said that you, Anaris, and you, Tom, personally went after him. I think he made that pretty clear.

I am going to strongly disagree with you on that. It seemed to me he was implying it. I directly asked him if that was his belief and he skirted around it saying:

Im claiming that the reports came coincidentially with an in-game set of events. I dont believe in coincidences, and since policy is that everything remains in silent, and annonymus i am entitled to believe whatever i want to believe.

I put the 6 years example because 6 years compared to 1 week its quiet an enormous amount of time, what? there was no one monitoring this great rules violator?. I put the friends example, to prove that im not a game hurter and that most of the players interacting with me even enemies had fun or appreciated me to be someone publically etiquetted as a game hurter.

There is nothing else to discuss. Im clearly a person with a boiled temper, i never messed with anyone OOC, i've never exploited a bug in favor (in fact i most of the bugs hurted my plannings more than helping). I believe someone tried to perjudicate me, and i think i got wrongly punished. I believe my reputation was questioned and that is something that after 6 years and with my background wont tolerate.

Im done here.

[Buffalkill]

I am going to strongly disagree with you on that. It seemed to me he was implying it. I directly asked him if that was his belief and he skirted around it saying:

I just re-read all of his posts and, respectfully, I think you're reading into it what you want to read into it. He's angry that somebody reported him, that's clear, and he's angry about how the Titans handled it. It's a pretty huge leap to read "I don't believe in coincidences" to mean that Tom Vogt and Timothy Collett are "attempting to benefit off of such action", which is what was being asserted.

[Zakilevo]

I just re-read all of his posts and, respectfully, I think you're reading into it what you want to read into it. He's angry that somebody reported him, that's clear, and he's angry about how the Titans handled it. It's a pretty huge leap to read "I don't believe in coincidences" to mean that Tom Vogt and Timothy Collett are "attempting to benefit off of such action", which is what was being asserted.

He is not saying Tom or Tim went after him. He is saying someone oocly went after him and Titans approved of that.