Player of Atanamirs account lock.

[Paradigm]

Just because someone in game asked me (even though it has completely no use) I shall post my complaint here:

Out-of-Character from Wilhelm Von Lunkhofen   (just sent)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (41 recipients)
It's not like voicing it on the forum is going to change this a bit. They will be simply covering for each other therefore my participation on the forum will be useless and since it's an out of character discussion I feel this out of character tag quite sufficient.

This game would be much better off without Titans or at least Titans who had a minimum of empathetical skill. I for instance have never seen any Titan response starting with "I understand how you might feel" and all I have seen are blunt responses. In fact when you complain about them they are attracted to you like honey does to bees and respond instantly, but when you have a question they take a week to respond and give a response that makes you feel like they think your an idiot.

In fact I just now received a threat of the Titans instead of the slightest bit of understanding. Which proves my entire point.

[Eduardo Almighty]

Erik and Atanamir developed a good rivalry. I'm sure many people love to play with him and against him, however, and while I have nothing personal against the player, my short time as Ruler of Sirion was awful, managing the situation between Atanamir and Dobromir, both IC and OOC.

He uses too much OOC when things do not work as he wants or how he feels ideal. And when he tries to impose his vision to all others, well, it's good to take a breath and reconsider your behavior. It's just a game, not a reason to go nuts or annoy/insult everyone when things are not exactly as you want.

I will miss to play with him like I miss to play with Ryu and even with Dobromir (although our approach has been very short). Anyway, at some point they must reconsider a behavior or another.

***

Doesn't mean I appreciate the Titans.

[Anaris]

It's not like voicing it on the forum is going to change this a bit. They will be simply covering for each other therefore my participation on the forum will be useless and since it's an out of character discussion I feel this out of character tag quite sufficient.

"Covering for each other" in what way? In that we who speak for the Titans agree with the decision that was made, and provide reasons for it?

Or are you one of those that believes that there is an actual conspiracy on the part of the game's administrators to ruin the fun of certain groups within the game?

This game would be much better off without Titans or at least Titans who had a minimum of empathetical skill. I for instance have never seen any Titan response starting with "I understand how you might feel" and all I have seen are blunt responses.

I do understand how you might feel. I understand how frustrating it can be to see someone who you think is a great player, who you don't feel has done anything wrong, get punished in the harshest way possible in this game. However, that doesn't mean for a second that I'm going to stop from punishing him, because he's not punished for you. He's punished for the many, many people he has harassed, threatened, and driven away with his attitude over the years.

I apologize if the official announcements of the Titans come off as sounding cold and impersonal, but it's because that's what they are: official announcements. The Titans aren't there to be your best buddies, they're there to be the scary people you don't want to cross, who you know you can go to when someone is screwing around with you in an OOC manner or violating your Inalienable Rights.

In fact when you complain about them they are attracted to you like honey does to bees and respond instantly, but when you have a question they take a week to respond and give a response that makes you feel like they think your an idiot.

Well, I don't know specifically what you're referring to with that last, but a) right now, the Titans are on high alert, since we all knew locking Atanamir would create a fair amount of upset, and b) if you complain about the Titans in a Titan report, it's obviously not a valid Titan report, and easy to just reject. A report that either is valid, and needs investigation, or might be valid, but needs investigation and/or discussion, takes time to deal with.

In fact I just now received a threat of the Titans instead of the slightest bit of understanding. Which proves my entire point.

I know exactly what you received, and it was not a threat, it was a warning. You got warned because you posted two obviously invalid Titan reports, which right there is an abuse of the system, both of which were directly insulting to the Titans, and could quite fairly be said to constitute harassment. Think about it this way: You just called 911 multiple times to tell the operators that they're a bunch of idiots, and now you're wondering why you're being told you could be arrested if you keep it up.

[Anaris]

Blatantly insulting posts and their followups have been removed. Please refrain from personal attacks on other players.

[Paradigm]

"Covering for each other" in what way? In that we who speak for the Titans agree with the decision that was made, and provide reasons for it?

Or are you one of those that believes that there is an actual conspiracy on the part of the game's administrators to ruin the fun of certain groups within the game?

Yes lets make me one that believes in a conspiracy, just make me look like a senile person, perhaps it aids in your argumentation?

I do understand how you might feel. I understand how frustrating it can be to see someone who you think is a great player, who you don't feel has done anything wrong, get punished in the harshest way possible in this game. However, that doesn't mean for a second that I'm going to stop from punishing him, because he's not punished for you. He's punished for the many, many people he has harassed, threatened, and driven away with his attitude over the years.

I don't care about the Atanamir situation at all. I'm using this opportunity to complain about the Titans impersonal behavior.

I apologize if the official announcements of the Titans come off as sounding cold and impersonal, but it's because that's what they are: official announcements. The Titans aren't there to be your best buddies, they're there to be the scary people you don't want to cross, who you know you can go to when someone is screwing around with you in an OOC manner or violating your Inalienable Rights.

Thats where there is a significant error in your words. They actually should be your best buddies. They should have feeling for the situation. Effectiveness is measured by Quality times Acceptation. I have no doubt your Quality is perfect, but your Acceptation is severely lacking and thus your effectiveness is zero. In fact perhaps this entire Atanamir situation would have been averted if you Titans did have any empathy.

Well, I don't know specifically what you're referring to with that last, but a) right now, the Titans are on high alert, since we all knew locking Atanamir would create a fair amount of upset, and b) if you complain about the Titans in a Titan report, it's obviously not a valid Titan report, and easy to just reject. A report that either is valid, and needs investigation, or might be valid, but needs investigation and/or discussion, takes time to deal with.

There is no other way for me to complain against a Titan is there? In fact we do not even know who they are, how competent they are and if they are doing their job properly. Indeed I do get very good impressions how they handle game situations, which is not very good.

I know exactly what you received, and it was not a threat, it was a warning. You got warned because you posted two obviously invalid Titan reports, which right there is an abuse of the system, both of which were directly insulting to the Titans, and could quite fairly be said to constitute harassment. Think about it this way: You just called 911 multiple times to tell the operators that they're a bunch of idiots, and now you're wondering why you're being told you could be arrested if you keep it up.

If I where in your position I would thank the person for the feedback and accepted. But then again, you do not want to hear feedback since you do not want to improve yourself. If you really think the Titan system should be a 911-like system then this game will result in an inevitable close down. You should be using it to improve the gameplay atmosphere, another think in which your entirely lacking. Instead of giving developers access to this kind of system I would suggest giving people with people's skills access to this system. It would be FAR more effective.

[Zakilevo]

Are you serious? Titans should be their best buddies? Why would anyone take Titans serious then? Also, they shouldn't let personal feelings get in the way of their judgement. If they were buddies with everyone, who's going to punish people for violating the social contract.

Everyone signed the social contract before joining the game. If you cross that you are not upholding your ending of bargain. Why should they care when you are not doing your 'part' of the deal?

If you want to complain about titans, take it to Tom or Tim as they are in charge of the titans. Also, letting everyone know who the titans are would lead to disasters. Think about it this way. You know there is a titan in your realm and he is like the best buddy like you want him to be and you know you can sway him to what you believe in whenever someone files a report against you or your realm. Can you really trust him to be impartial? The titans should be impartial about their decisions. They can't just favor whoever they like.

I am not sure what feedbacks you sent to the titans but report to the titans isn't the button you use for giving feedbacks....

[Paradigm]

Are you serious? Titans should be their best buddies? Why would anyone take Titans serious then? Also, they shouldn't let personal feelings get in the way of their judgement. If they were buddies with everyone, who's going to punish people for violating the social contract.

Yes I am serious. If they are buddies (and thus respected) by everyone there wouldn't be an issue. A thing you might find difficult to understand, but thats probably because you have never seen someone working on relationships in our current society.

[Indirik]

There is no other way for me to complain against a Titan is there?

You know, because you have been told several times, that the only acceptable method to complain about a Titan's decision, or about the Titans themselves, is via email to tom@battlemaster.org. This is the same avenue of appeal that every player has.

[Anaris]

Yes lets make me one that believes in a conspiracy, just make me look like a senile person, perhaps it aids in your argumentation?

Since there are players who have expressed that exact belief, it wasn't an attempt to paint you as senile, but rather an honest question. If you had answered in the affirmative, it is true that I would have discounted what you said a lot more, however.

Thats where there is a significant error in your words. They actually should be your best buddies.

That's your opinion, to which you are certainly entitled, but I don't share it.

They should have feeling for the situation. Effectiveness is measured by Quality times Acceptation. I have no doubt your Quality is perfect, but your Acceptation is severely lacking and thus your effectiveness is zero. In fact perhaps this entire Atanamir situation would have been averted if you Titans did have any empathy.

I'm not sure where you get that formula, it's not one I recognize.

As for empathy, I can assure you that the Titans have plenty of it. There is actually a pretty good mix in there right now, with some who would prefer to just press the "lightning bolt" button whenever someone steps out of line, and others who would prefer to give lots of gentle warnings and reminders of the rules, and rarely remove people from positions or take other punitive action.

I think what you are missing is that the Titans need to empathize not just with those being reported, but with those who are reporting them—people who feel that their experience of the game is being damaged, either through violations of the Inalienable Rights or Social Contract, multicheaters, or situations like the most recent one with Atanamir. It sounds like you would have the Titans think mainly of the people they punish, and ignore the people being wronged by other players, which we will not do.

There is no other way for me to complain against a Titan is there?

There is, and you know it perfectly well. You can email Tom, and state your case to him.

In fact we do not even know who they are, how competent they are and if they are doing their job properly.

No, you do not get to know who they are, because they are players, too, and they deserve to be able to play the game without people like you harassing them constantly about this decision or that.

Instead, you have to trust the creator of the game and his very small, volunteer support staff (led by me) to keep them honest and make sure that they are doing their jobs.

If I where in your position I would thank the person for the feedback and accepted. But then again, you do not want to hear feedback since you do not want to improve yourself.

If it had been constructive criticism, that is exactly what I would have done (though I would also have told you that you weren't going about it in the right way). It was not constructive criticism. It was blatant, unvarnished insult. That's not useful feedback, and cannot help to improve anyone.

If you really think the Titan system should be a 911-like system then this game will result in an inevitable close down. You should be using it to improve the gameplay atmosphere, another think in which your entirely lacking.

How, exactly, would you suggest doing that?

It sounds to me like you expect the Titans to be something that they were never intended to be. They were created in about 2005 as a group of players who could help Tom to deal with players who broke the rules, so that he didn't have to do it all on his own. That was their specific mandate: to punish breaches of the Inalienable Rights and the Social Contract. Not to improve the atmosphere or anything along those lines.

To be clear, I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to have a group of players tasked with trying to improve the atmosphere in the game. I've seen a lot of times where the atmosphere definitely leaves a lot to be desired. But that's not the Titans' job, so complaining that they're not doing it is somewhat out of place.

Instead of giving developers access to this kind of system I would suggest giving people with people's skills access to this system. It would be FAR more effective.

You seem to have an image of "developers" as pimply-faced geeks with absolutely no social skills who sit in basements all day long and write code, never talking to a human being.

I can assure you (though you may not believe me) that that's far from the case.

To be sure, none of us are big party people (at least, that I know of!), but that doesn't mean that we're unqualified to do the jobs of Titans. Again, I think you're misunderstanding the fundamental nature of what the Titans are meant to be.

Where we need people with people skills is as community managers, not Titans.

[Paradigm]

There is, and you know it perfectly well. You can email Tom, and state your case to him.

Oh don't give me the email Tom look. You as well as I do is that hes not going to say anything different. He has personal interests to keep you people happy, while he has zero interest to see me happy or rather he wouldn't even care if I disappeared from this game.

If it had been constructive criticism, that is exactly what I would have done (though I would also have told you that you weren't going about it in the right way). It was not constructive criticism. It was blatant, unvarnished insult. That's not useful feedback, and cannot help to improve anyone.

Your indeed correct. I suggest you take some time to evaluate why it happened. Instead of trying to point me to the act itself and absolve yourself of any guilt.

It sounds to me like you expect the Titans to be something that they were never intended to be. They were created in about 2005 as a group of players who could help Tom to deal with players who broke the rules, so that he didn't have to do it all on his own. That was their specific mandate: to punish breaches of the Inalienable Rights and the Social Contract. Not to improve the atmosphere or anything along those lines.

I expect the Titans to evolve. Obviously only testing the rules is by far from sufficient currently. If you truly want this game to survive you need to learn to handle conflicts not to put a judgment on them. A thing that is simply not there within the standard package of the regular developer. Those who would master these two skills would be too busy in their lives to spend time at this game in the first place.

Where we need people with people skills is as community managers, not Titans.

A classical but futile thought. These where my final words on this subject, If you chose to ignore my words then so be it. It will not be my loss if this game dies a slow death due to continuous OOC and IC conflicts which the Titans do not consider their responsibility to manage. One day I will just disappear in animosity before this drama will happen.

[Anaris]

Oh don't give me the email Tom look. You as well as I do is that hes not going to say anything different. He has personal interests to keep you people happy, while he has zero interest to see me happy or rather he wouldn't even care if I disappeared from this game.

If you've already decided that nothing will be changed, then why are you even doing any of this?

Furthermore, Tom's first interest in the game is the health of the game as a whole. Not whether I'm happy, or you're happy, or any other individual player is happy. He also knows perfectly well that if he makes a decision I don't agree with, I may argue with him, but I'll do it. I've done it before, many times.

Your indeed correct. I guess you take some time to evaluate why it happened. Instead of trying to point me to the act itself and absolve yourself of any guilt.

Yeah, no. You don't get to fling insults around, then tell me I need to "evaluate" why you can't keep a rein on your temper and respond rationally, rather than flying off the handle.

If you want something to change, then you need to come to us with a clear, calm, reasonable explanation of a) what you think the problem is, b) why you think it's a problem for the game as a whole, and c) what you think the best solution would be.

I expect the Titans to evolve. Obviously only testing the rules is by far from sufficient currently. If you truly want this game to survive you need to learn to handle conflicts not to put a judgment on them.

So you think what we need is some kind of mediation system? How do you think something like that should work? Especially in the cases where one of the parties involved is a relatively new player, who understand their rights, but doesn't want to be marginalized in retaliation for reporting their General for ordering them to recruit infantry instead of archers?

This is the reason the entire Titan system is anonymous, Paradigm. It is designed to protect players in positions of weakness from being exploited and abused by players in positions of strength. Any new system or evolution of the system that you propose must keep that in mind.

A thing that is simply not there within the standard package of the regular developer. Those who would master these two skills would be too busy in their lives to spend time at this game in the first place.

Aaand we're back to being insulting again. You really need to take a hard look at your stereotypes, Paradigm.

I've done mediation in the past, and I've been pretty good at it. You're right that I don't do it a lot because it's time-consuming, but that doesn't mean I'm incapable just because I'm a "developer."

A classical but futile thought. These where my final words on this subject, If you chose to ignore my words then so be it. It will not be my loss if this game dies a slow death due to continuous OOC and IC conflicts which the Titans do not consider their responsibility to manage. One day I will just disappear in animosity before this drama will happen.

Well, you came back once. If you do disappear in a burst of frustration, it won't surprise me to see you back here again in another year or two.

And frankly, it's people who react the way you do that cause some of the worst problems with the atmosphere in the game. Instead of trying to give constructive criticism, your first response is to throw insults. When the Titans do something that you don't like, you immediately start calling them vile names in in-game OOC messages. You loudly proclaim that posting on the forums won't do any good, because "they'll be covering for each other."

All of this is divisive behaviour. You want to make a positive difference, Paradigm? Start with yourself. Try to find ways to unite the players—all the players, including Titans, devs, and people on the other side in whatever war you happen to be fighting right now—rather than divide them. If you don't like a decision, try to understand it before declaring that it's stupid, and the people who made it must be stupid.

I understand why you react the way you do. I understand the frustration. I really do. But I have to think of more than just my realm, or my friends. I have to think of the game as a whole, and that is why people like Atanamir cannot be allowed to remain in the game. It would be great if the Titans really could be everyone's friends, and everyone would respect them and the decisions they take. But not everyone is going to be like that. There will always be people who, when they or one of their friends is punished for a blatant violation of the IRs, decides that the Titans are the enemy, simply because the Titans acted against someone they liked.

This will also by my last reply to you, whether or not you post another message here, unless you really want to have a serious, sensible discussion about the idea of some sort of mediation or atmosphere-improvement group.

[Thorryworry]

Constructive critism :

In the Case of Atanamir, I would like to have seen more lightning bolts ( when was the last time that was used on EI? ) and more and longer locks. Also a more detailed and to the point reasoning from the Titans. I never knew about the many OOC argues or that of Drobomir. It might give me a reason to help him or caution him. Now I lose a great player, and 2 other fine players that left the game in the last hours, without me able to do something about it.

[Lavigna]

Constructive critism :

In the Case of Atanamir, I would like to have seen more lightning bolts ( when was the last time that was used on EI? ) and more and longer locks. Also a more detailed and to the point reasoning from the Titans. I never knew about the many OOC argues or that of Drobomir. It might give me a reason to help him or caution him. Now I lose a great player, and 2 other fine players that left the game in the last hours, without me able to do something about it.

+1

[Cren]

The thing is, the player of Atanamir was warned multiple times before this perma lock happened. His account was locked for a couple of days two months or so back, probably for the same reason the perma lock happened. So the Titans did give him opportunity to mend his ways, since he continued that behavior so they can't be blamed for locking him. he brought this upon himself.

[Thorryworry]

that might be true but i never knew the real reasoning behind the short lock. Not that it piled up on ooc that I never saw. If you have a lock for a longer time the realmmembers might explain why and we as players could help. A short lock just looks like a slap on the wrist and since he's passionate about the game I blamed it on that.