Spying (was: Re: An Open Letter to the BM Community)

[Eldargard]

I can't really put it in words, but I feel like that's more of an excuse for laziness on the part of leadership. It's a leader's job to build up team spirit, which also builds loyalty, and makes it easier to find spies just by family relations. You could also speak in more general terms, such as "we're so much better than so-and-so, we'll take their capital right out of their hands!" No, people don't necessarily get involved in the planning that way, but they do feel a part of the team.

I'm sure we could debate it endlessly once I find my words, but something feels wrong about the extreme negativity for IC-IC spying.

I agree.

I am not at all against IC spying. I am against people excluding others because they fear it could happen. While IC spying can be used as an excuse to form closed circles, it does not have to be. Even if IC spying can be shown to be 100% responsible for the loss of a battle, it does not mean that you have to become angry, paranoid and exclusionary. The game can still be fun - should remain fun.

Plus, as in real life, if someone really wants to get you, they will. All the extra security and paranoia is only likely to inconvenience a determined spy while is is far more likely to discourage trustworthy players who really want to contribute. Given the choice, I would always chose against secret councils and paranoia! Then again, I may be a bit of an idealist here!

Again, the advice of  "playing as f you were playing a game amongst friends" really rings true here. If a friend busts out a surprise move in a game of Risk, I congratulate him. If an opponent slams me to the mat for an Ippon using a sneaky tactic, I try to learn from it and shake his hand. If there is some ind of unsportsmanlike like conduct going on (Sharing info via OOC means, exploiting bugs to more effectively spy, and the like, then there is a problem.

[Anaris]

Boring realms are a breeding ground for spies. Spies are just nobles looking to earn favour outside their realm, as they fail to get it inside.

Sure, that's sometimes why it happens.

But a lot of times, spies are nobles who were either created or put in your realm for the express purpose of gathering information for your enemies. It has nothing to do with your leadership or how fun the realm is: it's purely a strategic decision by someone on the other side.

[Indirik]

I'm with Eirikr on this. Boring realms are a breeding ground for spies. Spies are just nobles looking to earn favour outside their realm, as they fail to get it inside.

I'm sorry, Lorgan, but that's simply not true. In the several cases of very successful IC spying that I've seen, the characters that were doing the spying specifically came to the realm to perform IC spying. It has nothing to do with a boring realm, or earning favor, or anything else like that. (It usually happens in the most active realms, since they're the ones that have the most to spy on.) It's characters that are in the realm for no other reason than to pass on the plans/orders/etc. to some other realm. They're not spies that are locally produced through boredom or discontent.

Of course some people thrive on spying or are driven to it by IC actions and don't need a boring and distrustful realm to turn spy, but those people are rare, and negligible, or identifiable.

Rare? Yes. But the damage they cause has an impact that far outweighs their frequency.

Negligible? Hardly. Not when the enemy knows every order that you give to the army, within minutes of you sending it. Or when the enemy knows all of your plans.

Identifiable? Only if they're idiots. Even a half-intelligent spy in BattleMaster is undetectable without either spies of your own, or plain old dumb luck.

[Indirik]

Again, the advice of  "playing as f you were playing a game amongst friends" really rings true here. If a friend busts out a surprise move in a game of Risk, I congratulate him. If an opponent slams me to the mat for an Ippon using a sneaky tactic, I try to learn from it and shake his hand.

Mrh? How does either of those situations have any resemblance at all to spying? Spying is like finding out that your opponent in a game of Scrabble has placed a mirror behind your chair so he can see all your tiles. After all, there's no rule in Scrabble that specifically forbids mirrors, is there? Therefore it must be totally legit.

[Lorgan]

... are we still talking about OOC connections to spy? Or are there really people out there who join a realm just to spy for an IC connection?

Either way, In my experience, it'll be the guy with a family member in the other realm, or the guy that just joined you from an enemy realm, or the guy that just joined you plain. Anyone you don't know basically. And you should know everyone, realms really aren't that big anymore.

My point is, if it's not done OOCly, combating spying is a game of the heart. Someone may enter your realm a spy, but show him some love and he might change his mind. Be wary of everyone outside your inner circle and they might just as well all be spies. Look at the real world: in closed societies paranoid leaders grow estranged from their power base and get eventually overthrown, open societies suffer the occasional breach of trust but thrive nonetheless, attracting people from all over the globe. If BM is a sociological experiment, reaction to spying is a crucial part of it.

As long as it is done ICly, it is thus an integral part of the game and one of only very few tools available to dislodge cliques in power.

[Anaris]

... are we still talking about OOC connections to spy? Or are there really people out there who join a realm just to spy for an IC connection?

You've been in this game for over 10 years, and you can doubt this?

Either way, In my experience, it'll be the guy with a family member in the other realm, or the guy that just joined you from an enemy realm, or the guy that just joined you plain. Anyone you don't know basically. And you should know everyone, realms really aren't that big anymore.

BS. There's no way you can "know everyone," because there's still a significant percentage of players who basically don't talk.

And regardless, that's meaningless. A good spy will have you totally convinced that you "know him," when he's actually sending all your information to the enemy.

And no, great leadership and "winning the hearts" of spies isn't going to help, except in very isolated cases. We're talking about people joining realms with a built-in predisposition to distrust and even hate them—or at best, not care one whit about the people there or anything that happens to them. Because they're The Enemy. It's not like in real life, where an embedded spy can really get to know the people around him, their kids, their hopes and dreams, their dog, the whole works, because these aren't really people. They're characters, and many of them can be pretty shallow characters. And the best characters, who are fleshed out and made more real, have this done for them through RP. RP which the spy will probably just skim through to make sure it doesn't contain any useful intelligence, and beyond that, ignore. Because why should he care?

Your ideas are nice ones, Lorgan, but they just don't hold up to scrutiny in light of practical experience in BattleMaster.

[Stue (DC)]

this thread's subject is not ooc spying. where are the moderators?

[Indirik]

this thread's subject is not ooc spying. where are the moderators?

It is now.

Thanks for the reminder.

[Eirikr]

Sure, that's sometimes why it happens.

But a lot of times, spies are nobles who were either created or put in your realm for the express purpose of gathering information for your enemies. It has nothing to do with your leadership or how fun the realm is: it's purely a strategic decision by someone on the other side.

But those people can often be isolated due to those connections. They're really not the problem, in my opinion. It's when you've got a hole that you can't find to plug...

Maybe that's the real solution, as I somewhat alluded to earlier? Make it easier to catch them. Then it won't matter why or how they came to spy because there's now a real risk to them. Unfortunately, we run into that age-old issue of people speaking outside of game-controllable venues... Then again, eventually something has to happen in-game.

I know it seems like throwing things at infiltrators has become a common solution, but maybe giving them an ability to look at recent message history from a player is a good idea? Like torture, but not so obvious? They can look at someone's desk or a not-so-careful scribe's archive or something. Diplomats could do that too, maybe - it's common knowledge that while they aren't the fantastical spies movies make them out to be, but they are on the lookout for anything useful.

One of the reasons I do like properly accomplished spying is that it further enhances the quasi-model of politics Tom and the devs have created. It can break up an old alliance, defeat an otherwise indefatigable enemy... it's also something everyone knows everyone else does, but is always an issue when it's brought into the spotlight. That alone can unite a realm against another: "They had the GALL to SPY on their ALLY?!"

EDIT: Didn't read the stuff in between yet. I was also going to suggest breaking it off.

[Eirikr]

The only thing new in there that I think I want to respond to is that my point with leadership was just as much convincing people not to spy as it is overpowering the people who are by giving them enough energy to succeed even when their plans are revealed.

A good example for me on this is Thalmarkin and Fingolfin - he shares almost everything and we've had spies... but we're still able to push through it. A large part of that seems to be how invested the rest of the realm is, whether that's his leadership or just the atmosphere. It doesn't seem to matter if your realm is big or small, either. Lyonesse and Silnaria were both small, but took all of our traitors and spies in stride. Difficult, but definitely fun.

Remember, again, I'm talking about IC spying... the OOC aspect has no defenses. You can't prevent it and you can't really guess it's going to happen. (Usually because if the person is so intent as to want to go OOC with it, they're not going to leave IC clues for you to figure it out.)

[LilWolf]

When I said spying is bad for the game I meant all spying, be it IC, OOC or what ever. Sure, it might create fun for one individual as he giggles every time he shares something important. But that individuals fun comes at the expense of everyone else in the realm. They will all get less information, they will be included in fewer discussion, they will have a less open realm. They will have less fun playing the game as a result.

It doesn't even have to mean spying is frequent. Just that it happened some time and caused problems. Peoples minds remember the bad things very well.

That's why I've turned down several potential spies when I've been ruler. And I hope that's what more people would do. Just turn them down.

[Bedwyr]

I am in the "fine if IC" camp.  Having been on both sides of it, I just can't say I worried all that much about the "drone sitting in realm and relaying orders" spying, and the actual dedicated spies often had excellent stories.  I mean, seriously, the best story in the whole Arcachon-Sartania conflict had to be one deep-cover spy that eventually succeeded in turning Arcaea and Arcachon against each other.

[Zakilevo]

I am in the "fine if IC" camp.  Having been on both sides of it, I just can't say I worried all that much about the "drone sitting in realm and relaying orders" spying, and the actual dedicated spies often had excellent stories.  I mean, seriously, the best story in the whole Arcachon-Sartania conflict had to be one deep-cover spy that eventually succeeded in turning Arcaea and Arcachon against each other.

Bedwyr \o/ good to see you again!

[Eirikr]

When I said spying is bad for the game I meant all spying, be it IC, OOC or what ever. Sure, it might create fun for one individual as he giggles every time he shares something important. But that individuals fun comes at the expense of everyone else in the realm. They will all get less information, they will be included in fewer discussion, they will have a less open realm. They will have less fun playing the game as a result.

It doesn't even have to mean spying is frequent. Just that it happened some time and caused problems. Peoples minds remember the bad things very well.

That's why I've turned down several potential spies when I've been ruler. And I hope that's what more people would do. Just turn them down.

Or one could argue that it gets more involved as the information now reaches audiences outside of your realm as well. It depends on what the recipients do with it.

Something people against spying in general seem to imagine is a Snidely Whiplash type, maliciously sabotaging the realm for their own gratification. I don't disagree this happens, but I would hesitate that it represents all spying. I'd argue that it's fun to discover a spy or provide him with misinformation and see what happens... Or when you get that information and share it to your realm, who proceed to make fun of the enemy while the enemy spy brings it back and plans change again.

[Haerthorne]

I am in the "fine if IC" camp.  Having been on both sides of it, I just can't say I worried all that much about the "drone sitting in realm and relaying orders" spying, and the actual dedicated spies often had excellent stories.  I mean, seriously, the best story in the whole Arcachon-Sartania conflict had to be one deep-cover spy that eventually succeeded in turning Arcaea and Arcachon against each other.

I missed that story, you'll have to tell me that one.