Author Topic: Spying (was: Re: An Open Letter to the BM Community)  (Read 15723 times)

Anaris

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Something people against spying in general seem to imagine is a Snidely Whiplash type, maliciously sabotaging the realm for their own gratification.

Not at all. It's rarely about their own gratification: it's about helping the realm they really work for.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 09:31:44 PM by Anaris »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Eldargard

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When I said spying is bad for the game I meant all spying, be it IC, OOC or what ever. Sure, it might create fun for one individual as he giggles every time he shares something important. But that individuals fun comes at the expense of everyone else in the realm. They will all get less information, they will be included in fewer discussion, they will have a less open realm. They will have less fun playing the game as a result.

It doesn't even have to mean spying is frequent. Just that it happened some time and caused problems. Peoples minds remember the bad things very well.

That's why I've turned down several potential spies when I've been ruler. And I hope that's what more people would do. Just turn them down.

The thing is that the lock-down you describe that can result from spying does not HAVE to be. Sure, it is often the first reaction but I have to wonder if it is ever the best. It is a lot like how the US reacted after 9/11.

Was all the enhanced security placed in airports effective? Possibly. Was the effectiveness of this enhanced security worth the inconvenience and invasion of privacy it imposed upon good citizens? Possibly. I am not saying that it was a bad choice in real life but when faced with a similar choice in a GAME, I would prefer to not see lock-downs enacted and rather see good citizens (ad even bad ones) embraced. It is fiction, i can afford to be idealistic!

In short, I am not sure the spying could ever be stopped even if the devs decided it should be. How we let the act affect our behavior is completely within our control though.

Jens Namtrah

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I'll speak up for the "other" side - all of the times that I have served as a spy (which isn't so many, TBH), - with one single exception where I only offered, but negos didn't work out -  it was because my realm was so secretive and totalitarian that I decided I didn't like them very much and wanted to bring them down.

Yes, I'd agree the type where they are put there intentionally is probably more common, but don't dismiss other possibilities.

Eirikr

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Not at all. It's rarely about their own gratification: it's about helping the realm they really work for.

Sure, it might create fun for one individual as he giggles every time he shares something important. But that individuals fun comes at the expense of everyone else in the realm.

I was referring to this specific idea, which has popped up several times in different forms, though I may also be reading a bit further into some comments than perhaps I should. I did mention I doubt it's the common case; where I feel like the real split is between those who do it to win and those who do it to stir things up (positively, such as in causing RP or interesting politics). Both can still cause fun and interesting situations otherwise unlikely to have ever occurred, but Orders, for example, will help you win more than they'll create political intrigue.


Vellos

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As a chronic spy and spy-recruiter, a few notes on my experience of the business in BM (current as of, say, 8 months ago---- maybe everything has changed since then). These could be generally true, or it may be that I manage to recruit a "type."

1. Most spies who are effective at spying aren't silent people blending into the background. They're usually active characters who invest a lot in the realm.

2. Most spies don't see themselves as spies, even OOCly. Many people who pass on information from their realms believe ICly, and as best I can tell OOCly, that they are helping their realm or team.

3. I've rarely ever used spies (with a notable exception I will address below) that were "planted." I usually find spies with histories in realms.

4. I don't think there's a strong tie between boringness and spies. I think there is definitely some--- active players in boring realms want an outlet. So there's a clear mechanism. However, really exciting realms also create internal politics that motivate espionage (see: Luria). These motives and actions create numerous opportunities to recruit sources. So I don't there's a catch-all way to prevent people in your realm from spying: making it more active or more quiet may change WHO becomes a spy, but it won't change that you have SOME spying.

5. Spying, in my experience (and I'll grant my beat on the espionage market is less on the orders-relaying side and more on the intrigue side, though I've done more than a fair share of both), is not that effective at creating a strategic advantage. Waiting for your enemy to give orders so you can give orders often creates issues even the most tactically incompetent person should be able to see, and knowing the enemy's orders on a turn-by-turn basis usually doesn't change your actions. In my experience, the most "useful" spying was 1) Nurturing turncoats and thereby sapping the enemy's political will to fight and 2) Weekly strategies, i.e. "Our next campaign will focus on this objective," etc.

Others are free to comment from their own experiences, but those have been my observations from what I think is one of the longer BM espionage careers. If my personal experiences are generally applicable, then I'm hesitant to endorse the "spying is bad for teams" thesis. Spying seems usually to reflect discontent within a team about how that team is being managed, and gives team members an outlet to depose current team leaders. That's not a bad thing.

But it seems to me the concern with spying revolves around trust. Spying can damage the environment of trust that makes it possible to play BM "as with friends." And I think that's a fair complaint. As I mentioned above, I have used planted agents on one particularly spectacular occasion some of the older folks probably remember, and which I flatter myself to say I see as a sort of epochal marker for the rise of the current espionage culture in BM.

For the younger folks, I'm referring to the last days of Oligarch when Oligarch's intelligence service (the "Worst Case Committee") actively used Oligarch's status as a refugee point for the many realms wiped out by Sirion, Old Rancagua, and Fontan to develop a wide-ranging network of spies. Simultaneous with a military-focused spy ring relaying orders, we cultivated a group of deeply embittered refugees from the destroyed city-state of Avamar who were desperate for a new home and willing to do anything to procure such a homeland. So I orchestrated a fake rebellion in Oligarch to kill two birds with one stone: give a bunch of my agents a kick-butt back-story to sneak into an enemy realm, and roust out some enemy agents (I forget if Sirion or Fontan were spying on us).

Once my agents lost their rebellion (made sure of that), they went to Old Rancagua and were accepted as fellow-travelers against Oligarch. I made sure one of them got captured by Oligarch a week or two later, and we executed him, just to prove to Old Rancagua these were real enemies of Oligarch.

A few weeks later, Oligarch's army (and specifically a division composed of refugees from various realms, mostly Avamar and Rancagua) launched a campaign to draw away Old Rancague's army. They did so, and my rebels moved to the capital, and rebelled. They won the rebellion, and immediately started wreaking havoc. The old economy system gave more power to the council to mess things up, and they did their best. Then there was a counter-rebellion by Old Rancagua loyalists, and they narrowly retook the throne. Meanwhile, an Oligarch-sponsored CTO just narrowly failed on OR's second city.

This was called Operation Rubber Ducky. It created a very large amount of bitterness from several fronts: players with characters identifying as Avamarian had a super-strong OOC identification with their realm identity, and were pissed at Oligarch's leaders (myself among them) for using them and then failing to deliver the win. Old Rancaguans felt we had cheated in some way. Many people in Oligarch who didn't know the full details in advance were mad because they also felt it violated the game's spirit, and felt Oligarch's reputation was tarnished. Needless to say, when Old Rancagua did eventually recover, they ended up being the most vindictive of Oligarch's three major enemies.

I provide this backstory because I learned a lot from Rubber Ducky. First, think twice before knocking over the other kid's sand-castle. Several good players left over Rubber Ducky. I'm not sure the game won. Second, if you're going to knock over the other kid's sand-castle, have a toy ready to give him. Rubber Ducky was pretty clearly aimed at turning the Old Rancaguans into refugees with absolutely no sense that we might try and make any type of fusion or anything like that. I don't think that was good. Third, even if you have a toy ready, try not to needlessly insult the other side, like by telling them they just got had by Operation Rubber Ducky. Fourth, using "planted" agents raises serious objections among many players and strikes a lot of people as, if not outright cheating, certainly not playing with friends.

I've tried to keep those lessons in mind since then. My point with all that was just to say I think rather than talking about "spying" being bad, we should accept that many players do find that espionage is a positive component of their gameplay experience, and try to work out social norms about what the best way to incorporate that gameplay desire actually is.
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Jens Namtrah

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The problem with worrying about spies is the "spies that aren't spies"

As I think Vellos said in all that, low level spying about troop movements usually isn't very effective. I've spied when I've felt shut out by Councils, for the most part, and offered low level stuff in exchange for a future barony or something. Rarely pans out, but gives my char motivation.

I've always felt chars should have bigger ambitions IG than they generally do, and if you strangle that with Councils and Silent Old Guard types, turn coating is a perfectly natural response.

HOWEVER - as I started to say, the bigger effect on the game typically comes from things like players with two chars in different realms sharing (even pretending it is knowledge they were "sent in a letter from their brother") what the other realm is thinking, stuff like that. Taking the mystery out of what the enemy or a strong neutral  is thinking about is far more damaging - in game, and to OOC fun - than some low level knight passing on info about a misdirection

But we cover that up with a million different labels and pretend it isn't spying, then we shut out players who are new to the game and don't even have anyone to tell secrets to from being involved in anything interesting,  for the sake of "security".

Indirik

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The problem with worrying about spies is the "spies that aren't spies"
That is definitely an issue. I've received messages IG before during periods of low activity where people said that there's rumours going around that my character is a spy. I just blow it off, but I assume some others might take it personally.

Quote
As I think Vellos said in all that, low level spying about troop movements usually isn't very effective.
Having been burned by people relaying orders quite a few times, I have to disagree with this. When properly applied in the right situations, knowing that your enemy is misdirecting, or where they plan on actually moving, is quite powerful.

Have you ever seen all of your misdirects fail to draw any response from the enemy, and your real movement draw strong response exactly where it needs to go? Especially when it happens again and again, over a period of several weeks.

Have you ever tried to catch a late-moving looting force that knows exactly where the chasing army is moving?

Have you ever had to deal with an enemy that has all the scout reports of all of your army movements and positions, even the ones behind the front lines?

How about an enemy who knows your exact refit cycle, and when your forces will be returning to the front lines?


It's bad enough when even general realm plans and options are leaked to enemies or potential enemies. But when your plans are constantly ending up in enemy hands, it gets really old, really fast. The only way to foil it is to compartmentalize information.

It's all well and good to just say you should just ignore it and move on with business as usual. But who really enjoys a situation where your entire realm is an open book to the enemy?
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Eirikr

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How about an enemy who knows your exact refit cycle, and when your forces will be returning to the front lines?

I don't disagree with your post, I just wanted to note that this can also be calculated pretty accurately if you assume no delays or stops. There's a definite minimum time between two regions and there's usually a couple days' refit time for stragglers and big units. Delays don't really make this worse, either, because it means you'll just be there and ready a little sooner than what actually happens. When it really pays off is multiple fronts or multiple routes to a front, unless you're going to the same spot anyway.

Jens Namtrah

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Exactly - these things win battles, but not wars.

In any case, this is different from the issue of players being locked out of any meaningful discussions & used as simple pawns for other players, whether intentional or not. "Petty" spying is something that secret councils can't stop anyway

flames

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Most annoying spies are those planted in the realm just to spy and those "brothers from different realms". Having IG dissatisfied noble selling his realm to the enemy or getting info from character who is both yours and your enemy friend - IMO, is quite interesting and OK.

Bad things what spies sometimes do (except forcing people to make secret circles for important discussions) - they destroy smartass strategies. Yes, if you have clear advantage and your goals in the war (take this or that region) are clear enough, spies can't do much harm. But if you are trying to outsmart your enemy, provoke them, pretend that you are going to one region and go to the another instead, make traps - then all this is pointless if you have spies. It is a bit sad, because smart starategies can be more thrilling and interesting than straighforward ones.

Gustav Kuriga

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flames, you're over-exaggerating the issue.

Tan dSerrai

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Spying:

First, I have played this game for umpteen years now....I have found that spies simply are not that effective: the most obvious, relaying details of military orders, plans, objectives is of very limited use. The single valuable information a spy can give you is about major political shifts that are secretly aimed against your realm (an ally switching sides, an enemy wanting to switch to yours). That both happens rarely, is often impossible to keep secret anyway AND such a shift sometimes fails (due to internal rebellions and the like).

Military details: I have been general and marshal several times...and the information you could gain about the enemy is of very limited use...once you have it it is either outdated or you know about it anyway....there are seldom two _very_ different strategies that a realm can pursue where if you concentrate on one you would be badly mauled if the other is used.

But most important: It is far better to create a good atmosphere in your own realm, giving players something worthwhile to do and to identify with, actually handing out a lot of information enabling your realm mates to _think for themselves_, enabling them to make plans, give suggestions, spot mistakes...the benefits are _much_ larger than the disadvantage of information leaking to the other side.

If you have two realms, one in which information is tightly controlled, which has a good spy network and good internal security....the other being a more 'open' one, handing out information, letting those interested join a military council, even risking detailed plans being leaked to the enemy....I'd wager that 4 out of 5 times the open realm beats the secretive one on the battlefield simply because its nobles act better informed, make less mistakes - and have a lot more enthusiasm than the nobles of the secretive realm that mostly only can follow orders.

Chenier

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Any incessant leakage gets old really quick, be it military or political. D'Hara has a long history of being riddled with spies. And it's stemmied involvement significantly. Every effort to be less secretive and involve more people always bit us back in the ass, with the info going back into Lurian hands. Which then always made sure we knew about it... Hard to justify being open and all when your enemy is constantly boasting about having all of your private info.

And I disagree that sensitive information is not valuable. While I've never really had access to many spies myself (and most of those who spied for me were really bad at it, not conveying much info, not getting access to anything sensitive, and not staying undercover very long), torture reports have given me invaluable evidence on numerous occasions.

I also don't buy the "openness makes greatness" argument. As far as I know, the most successful realms are not the most open.
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trying

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Spying is terrible in places with sea travel. It makes surprise landings end up being a one sided massacre.

Blue Star

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Spying is still considered effective?

It's no where like it was in it's hay day... *Coughs* Black Hand... I mean the line between actually spying is still grey.

I could easily tell realms false information because who wouldn't believe a blue star? All we do is drink and well drink or so I think.

I think like a sinner. Curse like a sailor. Smile like a saint. :)