Region buffs from religion

[Antonine]

Title: Region buffs from religion

Summary: Significantly increase the buffs and debuffs to region stats caused by the match or mismatch between the lord's and the peasants' religion.

Details: At the moment region stats will be hurt slightly if a sizeable number of peasants have a different religion to their region lord and will be improved slightly if they have the same religion. I propose significantly increasing the negative effect of a mismatch and possibly doing the same to the positive effect of a match.

Benefits: At the moment religion is pretty much inconsequential to the game - particularly since the priest class was nerfed. As a result most players don't care about their character's religion and there are lots of nobles who remain pagan without any stigma despite the fact that, in theory, nobles are meant to be embarrassed about following the same superstitions as peasants.

By creating significantly increasing the impact of a lords religion matching or not matching that of their region then there's a strong incentive to take religion seriously. A pagan lord will have an incentive to adopt the majority religion of their region. A lord who belongs to a religion will have both a positive and a negative incentive to ensure that their region is converted to share their faith including by using mechanics like persecuting heretics which generally don't get used at the moment.

This will actually create an everyday consequence from religion in the game and hopefully that might result in the whole topic being taken more seriously and end the current situation where hardly anyone other than priest characters actually give a damn about it.

It would additionally make the game more realistic because in real life if you were to follow one religion and conquer somewhere with a completely different religion then you could probably expect a lot of resistance to your rule as a result.

Possible downsides or exploits: if the buffs and debuffs are too strong or too rapid then a region could potentially suffer severe damage before it can realistically be converted but I'm not sure that this is a downside unless the buffs are at completely ridiculous levels. My understanding is that regions no longer spiral out of control so a region might be kept at low stats due to a religion mismatch but shouldn't go rogue or anything as a result of it.

[Indirik]

particularly since the priest class was nerfed.

Please stop saying this. The priest class has never been nerfed. It may have had some bugs fixed, or some unintended behaviors corrected, but it has never had any abilities removed or significantly changed.

This will actually create an everyday consequence from religion in the game and hopefully that might result in the whole topic being taken more seriously and end the current situation where hardly anyone other than priest characters actually give a damn about it.

This change will not get any players to actually care about religion. We've already seen, on Dwilight, what will happen: People will join, then just ignore everything. And if you try prod them into action, they will complain quite loudly about how they're just there because you *have* to be there, and how you should just shut up and let them get back to playing the *real* game.

You can't make people care about the religion aspect of the game. It's either something they wish to participate in, or not. If you try and force it, you will just get a lot of angry people.

[Antonine]

Please stop saying this. The priest class has never been nerfed. It may have had some bugs fixed, or some unintended behaviors corrected, but it has never had any abilities removed or significantly changed.

I would call losing the ability to RTO rogue regions quite a significant change. There are a few other changes which I forget but even if those were all bugs or unintended behaviours it was a pretty big change in their abilities.

[Antonine]

Additionally, even if the only effect of this was to have characters join a religion because it would cause them problems if they didn't then that in itself would be an achievement given the number of characters which currently remain pagans. Plus, given the way religions spread, something like this would give realms a solid incentive to try and ensure they have one religion in their land instead of multiple coexisting ones - and if that kind of religious uniformity adds a little more cohesiveness to a realm's culture and gives them a few more excuses for war with their neighbours then that's a benefit worth having on its own considering how relatively easy it would be to implement.

[Chenier]

Combined with "the locals are disgraced that their local lord is indebted to the Church" could give a sure boost in religion finances.

[Indirik]

Additionally, even if the only effect of this was to have characters join a religion because it would cause them problems if they didn't then that in itself would be an achievement given the number of characters which currently remain pagans.

I'm not convinced it would make the religious game, let alone the game overall, any better. I see as much potential for negative impact as I do for positive. "More people will be in a religion" doesn't sound like a great selling point, when in addition you will be adding a lot of aggravation on the part of quite a few players who want nothing at all to do with that part of the game.

Plus, given the way religions spread, something like this would give realms a solid incentive to try and ensure they have one religion in their land instead of multiple coexisting ones

Or perhaps it will cause realms to purposely mix more religions, in order to prevent any one religion from gaining power. I already know of characters who purposely take active measures to prevent any single religion from having too many followers. Keep the followers down, and remove all potential negative influences.

I really don't see this as the universal panacea that you think it would be.

Combined with "the locals are disgraced that their local lord is indebted to the Church" could give a sure boost in religion finances.

That could be an interesting option. But I don't know that it would really drive up church finances. More likely an uprising against high membership fees, resentment against the religion, and loss of members.


IMNSHO, forcing people to play the religion game is a losing proposition. People that want to play it, already do.

[Chenier]

Being in a religion exposes one to religious talk, making it more likely for any given person to finally decide to participate.

As for complaints about the fees, well that could incite the lords to adopt and foster a religion with lower fees so that they don't have to pay out as much. But such a religion will have a hard time financing itself compared to those that charge more, thus a balance will likely be reached between the "don't charge enough to compete" religions and the "charge so much as to drive away people" religions. Whichever people chose, it favors religions.

Besides, lords already tax temple treasuries. This would just bring things back on par. It's pretty ridiculous how lords can artificially increase their balance just by playing with local tax rates and local temple treasuries.

As long as the game mechanics favor that players ignore religion, that is what most players will continue to do.

[Indirik]

Being in a religion exposes one to religious talk, making it more likely for any given person to finally decide to participate.

Or the more likely they will just stay in a novice rank and continually bitch about the fact that discussions aren't kept to the full members channel so that they don't have to listen to it. Been there, done that.

As long as the game mechanics favor that players ignore religion, that is what most players will continue to do.

So... most players want nothing to do with the religion game. But you still want us to try and force it down their throats. Thus making the game Less Fun for most players. Doesn't sound like a good trade.

[Chenier]

Or the more likely they will just stay in a novice rank and continually bitch about the fact that discussions aren't kept to the full members channel so that they don't have to listen to it. Been there, done that.
So... most players want nothing to do with the religion game. But you still want us to try and force it down their throats. Thus making the game Less Fun for most players. Doesn't sound like a good trade.

Most players don't want to participate in the religion game because game mechanics punish those who do. It's a high-investment, high-risk, no-reward system. And by its totalitarian structure, it means that everyone's contributions to it, save for one's, is at the total mercy of the latter. Governments you can protest against, rebel against, or secede from. Religion founders? Nothing. Why give power to others that you'll never be able to take away, should it be required?

The biggest cause of religions not being alluring and taken seriously is the mechanics behind them. They were designed to be weak and repulsive.

[Constantine]

The biggest cause of religions not being alluring and taken seriously is the mechanics behind them. They were designed to be weak and repulsive.

Um.. No?
Maybe that's the main reason powergamers don't join religions, but they won't be of any use in an rp-heavy environment anyway.

I personally am not interested in religion right now because it is just another closed club. Much more closed than secular hierarchy.
You can join a realm and become a marshal, lord or at least a trusted courtier pretty soon because many realms actually lack active players.
Religions span across the realms and have enough members in them who just hang there and look bored, shuffling positions and ignoring acolytes. I joined one of the big religions (don't want to name names) and was not contacted by a priest once. Didn't receive even general letters from the clergy.
Your logic is flawed. "Religion is not fun any more and we lack players. Hence we need to force players into religion and it will be fun again." Nope. It's actually the other way around.
Instead of dragging people into religion by force, make your religion interesting and proactive and people will join even if there is zero mechanical relevance. You only need a few very active priests who are willing to rp and proselytize and reinvent a more "horizontal" hierarchy for your church - that would be much much more effective if you want to draw people who are looking for that kind of rp in.

[Indirik]

Most players don't want to participate in the religion game because game mechanics punish those who do.

I'm sorry but that's completely untrue. It's also a topic that does not belong in this thread. This is a feature request thread, not a a general discussion thread

[De-Legro]

Um.. No?
Maybe that's the main reason powergamers don't join religions, but they won't be of any use in an rp-heavy environment anyway.

I personally am not interested in religion right now because it is just another closed club. Much more closed than secular hierarchy.
You can join a realm and become a marshal, lord or at least a trusted courtier pretty soon because many realms actually lack active players.
Religions span across the realms and have enough members in them who just hang there and look bored, shuffling positions and ignoring acolytes. I joined one of the big religions (don't want to name names) and was not contacted by a priest once. Didn't receive even general letters from the clergy.
Your logic is flawed. "Religion is not fun any more and we lack players. Hence we need to force players into religion and it will be fun again." Nope. It's actually the other way around.
Instead of dragging people into religion by force, make your religion interesting and proactive and people will join even if there is zero mechanical relevance. You only need a few very active priests who are willing to rp and proselytize and reinvent a more "horizontal" hierarchy for your church - that would be much much more effective if you want to draw people who are looking for that kind of rp in.

Agreed. You only need look at the Luria religions for this reality. Generally when they are first formed and the creator and first converts are super active, they go through a golden age, recruiting lords etc because they have people engaging in actual religion activities. The problem tends to be when those characters/players leave and you lose that activity. I don't think religions need more people forces into them, they need something which encourages more of the members to be truly active. Of course the same is completely true of realms. How many realms fall into a slumber when a particular ruler or council no longer lead them and activity from the top drops, so if we could solve that particular issue we would really be on to something.

My thoughts are that the more people forced into a structure that is boring, is self reinforcing. When you are part of something where 90% are only their to get the mechanical advantage and do not participate, then that only encourages you to do the same. If you join something were 90% are active and engaging, that only encourages you to participate at that level.