Author Topic: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?  (Read 37787 times)

Thehatter

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #105: September 03, 2014, 04:51:52 AM »
Depends on what side of the fence you are on. Mice & friends or Anit-Mice & friends.

Even if you try to play nice with them they still spit in your face.

Eduardo Almighty

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #106: September 03, 2014, 01:16:16 PM »
Quote
Everyone has an island they hate.  I'm still (or maybe again?) enjoying Atamara. It took a while to get a lordship, but they're out there if you go looking.

I had two different experiences with Atamara... the first one in Falasan, as a new player. That was a good experience without pretensions. Like in my times in Ikalak, when I just got positions when the "rats were abandoning the ship". In both cases I had to move, for a reason or another, to another place where I was more successful. That was a mix of more experience + a bit of luck + most dynamic realms. Then, as a young player that was good, but restrictive.

At the second time, as a experienced player, in Tara I perceived I would never get anything. That would be ok to be a Knight, but wanting more, I just moved to Dwilight; again I had more there than I would have in Atamara. Once again, at least for me, restrictive. I don't hate it, but by my own experience and enjoying to have Lordships/Governmental Positions (while I never found a Council like the Sirionite, I enjoy to be inside the Council), I would advise other continents.
Now with the Skovgaard Family... and it's gone.
Serpentis again!

Ravier Nebehn

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #107: September 03, 2014, 05:05:38 PM »
Even if you try to play nice with them they still spit in your face.

Funny you should say that, because I'm having that exact problem with one of my characters right now. But I shall soon invoke the "I can move elsewhere" part of things.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 05:08:39 PM by Ravier Nebehn »

Vita`

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #108: September 03, 2014, 11:30:23 PM »
Viewing Atamara less in terms of CE vs everyone helps add enjoyment to the island. If you view the world being innately oppressed, you will be continually displeased when events confirm that belief. CE is hardly homogenous any way.

GundamMerc

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #109: September 08, 2014, 02:53:16 AM »
Noticing how everyone who says there isn't an issue with old guard cliques has an account that's at least several years old... priceless.

Chenier

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #110: September 08, 2014, 03:15:30 AM »
Noticing how everyone who says there isn't an issue with old guard cliques has an account that's at least several years old... priceless.

Your average joe walks outside, sees a yellow follow, calls it dandelion. Someone who has spent a bit of time in botany, though, might point out that it isn't Taraxacum officinale, but, say Tussilago, Hypochaeris, Leontodon, Agoseris, or, heck, even part of the Sonchus genus. With time and experience sometimes comes... perspective.
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Eldargard

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #111: September 08, 2014, 10:53:59 AM »
I have been playing the game off and on for several years. I am by no means as well versed as some players but I am also not completely new to the game. Though I do believe that there are certainly Cliques and even "Old Guard Cliques" in the game, they are not as big an issue as some believe.

To start with, Battle master is a popularity contest. This is most apparent in realms that use voting heavily but is also true in the most tightly held tyrannies. If you can get enough people to like you more that others you will have your in. When deciding who to support and help I never look to see who has played the game longest. Never. In general, I look to see who my character has the best relations with and who could most benefit my character should they be given my support. Nothing more and nothing less.

The most obvious "Old Guard Clique" I recall encountering was in Barca. I was a founding member of Barca back when the realm of Giask was destroyed and Julius convinced me and others to head west and start a new realm. It was hard work and for some time the original X founders were all that existed.

When Barca was founded I was it's first Judge and a huge voice in how things should be organized. Perhaps I am simply thinking too highly of myself but I felt that my opinions were only second to those of Julius and that even he often took my thoughts seriously. I used my influence to make Barca as inclusive as possible. Just look at the Barcan laws on the wiki page (they were still the original laws I wrote the last time I checked).

Despite this there was a huge "Old Guard Clique" mentality when nobles began streaming into our fragile little realm. There was a huge sense of us, the original founders, and them, the new additions. There was huge concern about how the new nobles would impact our culture and how to best control that. It was hard for new nobles to gain power and the original founders seemed reluctant to let anyone new to Barca gain power.

It happened though. Since Barca relied heavily on voting it did not take long for new members to become popular enough to gain land and titles. Now, when I look at the names of Character holding positions of power, I hardly recognize any of them. The "Old Guard Clique" had changed.

It changed because the new characters convinced other characters to like them. I do not think that it is the age of your account or time in realm that get's you into the ruling clique. It is talking, stating your opinion, being there, being reliable - just plain contributing. Do this and you will either make your into the ruling clique or you will garner enough support to replace that clique with a new one you are a part of!

Jens Namtrah

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #112: September 08, 2014, 11:02:51 AM »
Barca's not old enough to have an "Old Guard".  Not like what we are talking about.

Eldargard

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #113: September 08, 2014, 11:59:10 AM »
Barca's not old enough to have an "Old Guard".  Not like what we are talking about.

I completely disagree. The longest standing characters in Barca formed an "old guard clique". In any election that had characters new to Barca and an original founder would be won by the founder. This was the case for a while. Barca being a fairly new realm just means that the time in realm needed to be considered old guard is less than for older realms.

Chenier

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #114: September 08, 2014, 01:40:09 PM »
Barca's not old enough to have an "Old Guard".  Not like what we are talking about.

Then stop complaining, most realms aren't "old enough" to be relevant, by your standards.

Are there some cliques? Sure. But I find the most arrogant and exclusive cliques are not ones set up by players having been here for nearly a decade, but ones that started just a few years back and that, nurtured by these people who want to share, have had an easy and quick ascension and never really saw the need to share themselves.

Overall, though, it's a realm-specific issue, and not a gamewide problematic.
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Stabbity

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #115: September 08, 2014, 05:11:10 PM »
Noticing how everyone who says there isn't an issue with old guard cliques has an account that's at least several years old... priceless.

Youth is no guarantee of innovation or insight. Not specifically referring to age here. Nor will I argue account age automatically grants perspective. There are plenty of older players who lack that perspective as well. But simply crying out "They're just saying that because they've played longer!" is the very definition of ignorance. Old is not automatically stale, irrelevant and exclusive, nor is new automatically fresh, relevant and inclusive. Most times I find it to be the opposite. Not all, mind you. Just most.
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Lorgan

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #116: September 08, 2014, 07:27:32 PM »
I'm in a clique right now. I've been in different cliques on and off for about a decade. That's what ruling a realm is, working closely together with people you trust. Is it sometimes hard to earn that trust? Sure. But it's really a matter of seeing opportunities, and using them right.
Before I came to Beluaterra, at the eve of the First Invasion, I hadn't really gotten into the ruling class of a realm yet so that's what I was looking for. I joined a small realm, Old Grehk, and proved my worth during the Invasion, afterwards we expanded and I was made Duke of the capital. Years later with that character's son I found myself outside of the ruling class with them consistently making decisions against my views. I had knights so I up and left to join a realm with views similar to my own, Thalmarkin, which was down on it's luck due to a lack of nobles. I had already been into contact with their ruler for a while so when I arrived, I simply asked to be added to their extended council immediately on the account of me bringing them 8 new nobles and it was done. Then I went on to gear them up for war, got a little recruitment campaign going that doubled our mobile CS to 13k(I say little but it was actually work. Fun though). We were at war with Old Grehk so we went on to raid Ossmat and we took Vatrona. Guess who was made lord of Vatrona?

My point is, there's dozens of realms out there where opportunity is rife. Many realms have under 20 nobles. Join them, bring /something/ to the table and you'll be rewarded proportionally once you've earned their trust. People are not likely to go "oh there's the new guy, I better step down from my position so he can have it"(though my policy has always been one position per family), but earn their trust, show what you can do for them and , ideally, help them acquire new things to give. Be bold and take up responsibility. Don't just suggest what to do but ways to do it. And make sure your suggestions make sense. If they are not perceived to make sense, they probably don't. Those "ruling cliques" have enough sense to know what benefits them, and at least from their point of view by extension the realm, and what doesn't.

If you join a big realm however, like Talerium, it's going to take a little longer to earn your leaders' trust, whatever you bring to the table will be relatively smaller because of all the others doing the same thing. You'll have to either stand out, or bide your time.

And yes, once you've earned a ruling clique's trust, that's inherited by the rest of your family. That gives older players an advantage in some realms, a disadvantage in others. Where it's known, your family's reputation always precedes you, for good or bad. And there's nothing wrong with that since you're playing a family and not a random collection of individuals.

Jens Namtrah

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #117: September 09, 2014, 08:57:25 AM »
That's not a "clique" - not the way we mean it. A clique is exclusionary by nature, which goes against the social contract of BM.

If you can earn your way into the clique, it isn't a BM clique. A BM clique only says you can earn your way in, but you never will.

jaune

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #118: September 09, 2014, 10:33:02 AM »
A BM clique only says you can earn your way in, but you never will.

I have not seen such clique ever. Been playing this game over 10 years. And recently joined realm mentioned here Talerium when Darka fell. Later when Massilion needed Duke, as you know i put my name on the table and i get in the "realm council". Even thought i had been on the realm only short time. But Captain and other Talerium people knew that placing me to the Duke seat will bond ex Darkans and Talerium people even better together(althought there was already few ex Darkans on council).

I sure have known Aldarion long time, as co-ruler of neighbouring realm, but we have not always been close buddies and several times we have been very very close to wage war.

I do agree, that it is hard to get in many realms deciding table, but when you please and lick right peoples toes and work with them... you will get there.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Reply #119: September 09, 2014, 10:45:34 AM »
Now I am confused. It sounds more like a clan :o