Author Topic: Too much peace too much for Dwilight  (Read 72177 times)

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #180: July 22, 2011, 05:06:58 AM »
*cough*d'hara*cough*
Well sure, but they went and did it to themselves, it wouldn't be much of an achievement now.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Sacha

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1410
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #181: July 22, 2011, 05:22:01 AM »
Well sure, but they went and did it to themselves, it wouldn't be much of an achievement now.
But it's fun to kick a rival when they're down!

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #182: July 22, 2011, 06:40:17 AM »
But it's fun to kick a rival when they're down!

It's amazing how incredibly easy it would be for any one duke in D'Hara (though myself especially) to outright kill the whole realm, just by abusing that mechanic.

And this because the realm does what every realm should: pay decent prices to rural lords for their food.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Perth

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2037
  • Current Character: Kemen
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #183: July 22, 2011, 06:49:00 AM »
I agree.

TMP is dumb.
"A tale is but half told when only one person tells it." - The Saga of Grettir the Strong
- Current: Kemen (D'hara) - Past: Kerwin (Eston), Kale (Phantaria, Terran, Melodia)

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #184: July 22, 2011, 06:57:05 AM »
I agree.

TMP is dumb.

I bet I could pull it off even without TMP, though, too. TMP needs serious tweaks, but its not along. The bankruptcy code is the harshest one I've ever seen in the game. I don't think anything else can destroy so many thousands of gold worth of stuff overnight.

Which I honestly don't understand. Rogue regions can keep their infrastructure, but not me when I run a single week of deficits?

And I can think of many ways of plunging a region into deficits. It is most definitely abusable.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

JPierreD

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Hippiemancer Extraordinaire
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #185: July 22, 2011, 07:38:34 AM »
Indeed something that should be reviewed. The bankruptcy code is way too harsh.

On the TMP issue, your capital being Paisly, it would take you very little to send part of your army to Barca, Aurvandil or the wilderness to play heroes. Even more if you have 700 gold in your hands as you say.
d'Arricarrère Family: Torpius (All around Dwilight), Felicie (Riombara), Frederic (Riombara) and Luc (Eponllyn).

fodder

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1977
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #186: July 22, 2011, 07:38:38 AM »
If the problem was that a foreign army was marching on us, people would wake up and organize. But as egamma said, all of this just to pick fights with a few rogues?

eh.. just what exactly do the 17 or whatever people do in D'hara? they can't all be just doing priesty or buro crap or trade? (because i'm heading south to D'hara...... doh!)

---
thing is... there are % damage for buildings... non payment should do like 30% or whatever (depending on how much goes unpaid) rather than right out kaboom.

the other thing is.. there should probably be a treasury to go with automated stuff.. for emergencies like this... obviously it can be robbed (or blown up!).. a lot harder than your averge tax office though.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 07:45:54 AM by fodder »
firefox

Perth

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2037
  • Current Character: Kemen
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #187: July 22, 2011, 07:43:41 AM »
eh.. just what exactly do the 17 or whatever people do in D'hara? they can't all be just doing priesty or buro crap or trade?

I have always wondered this.

Actually, I'm not even sure there ARE other D'harans.

I just thought D'Hara was Chénier.
"A tale is but half told when only one person tells it." - The Saga of Grettir the Strong
- Current: Kemen (D'hara) - Past: Kerwin (Eston), Kale (Phantaria, Terran, Melodia)

JPierreD

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Hippiemancer Extraordinaire
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #188: July 22, 2011, 08:33:55 AM »
I took my time to investigate, they have the following nobles:
9 Warriors
3 Warriors/Cavaliers
2 Warriors/Heroes
2 Warriors/Traders
2 Courtiers/Heroes
1 Priest/Ambassador

Looks like a decent amount of warriors. Wonder what they do all day.
d'Arricarrère Family: Torpius (All around Dwilight), Felicie (Riombara), Frederic (Riombara) and Luc (Eponllyn).


Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #190: July 22, 2011, 11:06:56 PM »
To get back on topic...

I was running 16% taxes just fine before TMP kicked in. Then, even 8% was "insane and stupid". By the time I got the taxes down to tolerable levels, production was killed, the city had 100% sympathy but like 10% morale and control was dangerously low. With the lowered taxes, morale and control was regained, but production remains !@#$. As such, my income is null. Therefore, my trade balance of 550 gold was more than my tax collection. My city basically went bankrupt. This morning, I get:

All this, despite the messages saying that since it's winter they aren't as mad? All this damage was done instantly.

And how long was this going on, and your realm didn't do anything to find a way to take care of the issue? This kind of thing doesn't sneak up on you out of nowhere. You had to have known that sooner or later you would be running into problems. The need to constantly lower your tax rate in response to the constantly growing intolerance should have really been a big tip. Didn't someone in D'Hara say something like "Hey, we've been getting these warnings for a month, maybe we should do something about it"?

Quote
The Verdis Elementum Hoplites, notably, were an elite 90/100/90 SF centre I believe (or pretty damn close).
Not that close: T60/W45/A100, non-ranged

Quote
As I repeatedly said, these taxes are paying for their food. And their food is paid for before everything else. It is completely unreasonable that such damage can happen so ridiculously rapidly to a realm. The tax tolerance is *way* too low during TMP, the winter exception doesn't seem to work, and it should *not* apply to realms with a ridiculous food supply. This is not going to make *any* such realms go to war, as by the time the warning comes it's too late.

I am extremely upset that because a few units failed to go kill one or two monsters abroad, everything in the capital is lost. Not all realms are large enough to have rogues spawn internally to stave off TMP. This tax mechanic is therefore way more hurtful to small realms than large realms, which is not something we should be encouraging.

And seriously, *everything* shutting down because taxes don't balance for one given week? I could have *easily* paid for all that maintenance with my pocket money. That's a completely different code than TMP, but I find it quite unreasonably unforgiving as well. Damage should be gradual, with an option to invest pocket money for repairs. Honestly, maintenance is less than 50 gold per week. All that infrastructure that was destroyed is worth thousands of gold. I have about 700 on hand, too. One week of negative balances should *not* result in this.
I agree that the instant loss of all of your infrastructure does seem a bit heavy-handed. A hefty weekly damage allotment would probably be much better. But really, you had a deficit that week that was nearly 400 gold even if you only count food. Add on building maintenance and militia payments, too. So maybe a 550 gold deficit that week? I would expect that for that week, you'd take some hefty damage.

However, going another way would still open up possibilities for exploits. Any kind of automated system would be subject to abuse by clever enough players, I think.

The problem with just assessing some non-lethal building damage and moving on is that it allows you to exploit that to make your region a gold fountain. Just collect food in the region next door, set your Buy price as high as it will go, and then have your buddy sell you the food. He gets craploads of gold (2,000 bushels at 100g/100b = 2,000 gold) , and you get some building damage, which has no effect whatsoever on you if the buildings are not destroyed. Or if the only buildings you have are cheap/junky buildings. Building damage is repaired automatically as part of a region's normal operations, at no cost.

In the example above if your tax income is normally 300 gold, you just created 1,700 gold out of thin air. Next week you sell it back to the guy that sent it to you. Or to the next guy in the chain. Repeat as often as necessary. Heck, you could hit three or more regions in one week with the same shipment of food. Or just keep shipping it back and forth between the two of you. If the game were to try and take it from the lord's gold/bonds on hand, then they could drop it into a guild/temple/SS for tax day to avoid paying it. Or send it to another player entirely.

Unless you can see some way to do it that is non-exploitable?
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #191: July 23, 2011, 12:42:07 AM »
I took my time to investigate, they have the following nobles:
9 Warriors
3 Warriors/Cavaliers
2 Warriors/Heroes
2 Warriors/Traders
2 Courtiers/Heroes
1 Priest/Ambassador

Looks like a decent amount of warriors. Wonder what they do all day.

I don't know any more than you do, honestly. I can't lead troops, nor see them as a priest. Nor can I appoint myself to an army to eavesdrop in order to stay informed. The game totally locks me out of military matters.

Bear in mind that 5 of these non-traders and non-priests are also lords, who, I believe, tend to stay close to their regions most of the time. What the other 9 people do, I can't say...
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #192: July 23, 2011, 12:52:47 AM »
And how long was this going on, and your realm didn't do anything to find a way to take care of the issue? This kind of thing doesn't sneak up on you out of nowhere. You had to have known that sooner or later you would be running into problems. The need to constantly lower your tax rate in response to the constantly growing intolerance should have really been a big tip. Didn't someone in D'Hara say something like "Hey, we've been getting these warnings for a month, maybe we should do something about it"?

A month? I wish. It all went down in like half a week. When I first spotted it, I lowered taxes a bit, but stats had already dropped a lot. Then, they seemed even angrier at the lowered taxes than before, and it went down the gutter pretty much instantly. I also can't lower by more than 5% at a time either, so it took me a couple of days to bring it significantly down.

It really *did* sneak up out of nowhere. Last time we saw TMP, I had to cut taxes down by 4% maybe, not 10%, and damage came much more slowly. Also, the game suggests pretty heavily that since it's winter, there are no effects. So I didn't feel any rush to dramatically cut taxes on the first turn I saw this. I was also in another region at the time, so I couldn't hold a court right away.


Not that close: T60/W45/A100, non-ranged
I agree that the instant loss of all of your infrastructure does seem a bit heavy-handed. A hefty weekly damage allotment would probably be much better. But really, you had a deficit that week that was nearly 400 gold even if you only count food. Add on building maintenance and militia payments, too. So maybe a 550 gold deficit that week? I would expect that for that week, you'd take some hefty damage.

So it wasn't as epic as I recalled, but melee SF with 100A was basically the best I could hope for.

As for the rest, I don't see why not having enough gold for food should affect infrastructure maintenance in any way. As I said, it only costs about 50 gold for both militia pay and maintenance costs. That's peanuts, and there *was* enough gold collected to pay for it too. Imo, the food should be paid last, and maybe result in loyalty and control drops instead of having everything fall apart if it can't be paid?

However, going another way would still open up possibilities for exploits. Any kind of automated system would be subject to abuse by clever enough players, I think.

The problem with just assessing some non-lethal building damage and moving on is that it allows you to exploit that to make your region a gold fountain. Just collect food in the region next door, set your Buy price as high as it will go, and then have your buddy sell you the food. He gets craploads of gold (2,000 bushels at 100g/100b = 2,000 gold) , and you get some building damage, which has no effect whatsoever on you if the buildings are not destroyed. Or if the only buildings you have are cheap/junky buildings. Building damage is repaired automatically as part of a region's normal operations, at no cost.

If I was dishonest, I'd set my buy price to 5000 gold right now. I don't have anything to lose anymore, after all. Can't be any more broken than this.

In the example above if your tax income is normally 300 gold, you just created 1,700 gold out of thin air. Next week you sell it back to the guy that sent it to you. Or to the next guy in the chain. Repeat as often as necessary. Heck, you could hit three or more regions in one week with the same shipment of food. Or just keep shipping it back and forth between the two of you. If the game were to try and take it from the lord's gold/bonds on hand, then they could drop it into a guild/temple/SS for tax day to avoid paying it. Or send it to another player entirely.

Unless you can see some way to do it that is non-exploitable?

The present system is more exploitable than the idea you just presented. Plus, I mentioned further up region stat penalties instead.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Vellos

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3736
  • Stodgy Old Man in Training
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #193: July 23, 2011, 12:53:38 AM »
I agree that the instant loss of all of your infrastructure does seem a bit heavy-handed. A hefty weekly damage allotment would probably be much better. But really, you had a deficit that week that was nearly 400 gold even if you only count food. Add on building maintenance and militia payments, too. So maybe a 550 gold deficit that week? I would expect that for that week, you'd take some hefty damage.

However, going another way would still open up possibilities for exploits. Any kind of automated system would be subject to abuse by clever enough players, I think.

The problem with just assessing some non-lethal building damage and moving on is that it allows you to exploit that to make your region a gold fountain. Just collect food in the region next door, set your Buy price as high as it will go, and then have your buddy sell you the food. He gets craploads of gold (2,000 bushels at 100g/100b = 2,000 gold) , and you get some building damage, which has no effect whatsoever on you if the buildings are not destroyed. Or if the only buildings you have are cheap/junky buildings. Building damage is repaired automatically as part of a region's normal operations, at no cost.

In the example above if your tax income is normally 300 gold, you just created 1,700 gold out of thin air. Next week you sell it back to the guy that sent it to you. Or to the next guy in the chain. Repeat as often as necessary. Heck, you could hit three or more regions in one week with the same shipment of food. Or just keep shipping it back and forth between the two of you. If the game were to try and take it from the lord's gold/bonds on hand, then they could drop it into a guild/temple/SS for tax day to avoid paying it. Or send it to another player entirely.

Unless you can see some way to do it that is non-exploitable?

Here's an easy way to do it:
If the region's taxes can't pay for it, the food turns around and goes home.

Exactly like for non-automatic transfers.

Duh.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Too much peace too much for Dwilight
« Reply #194: July 23, 2011, 01:00:26 AM »
Here's an easy way to do it:
If the region's taxes can't pay for it, the food turns around and goes home.

Exactly like for non-automatic transfers.

Duh.

How could the game tell, though, if my production is about to drop to 0% or not?
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron