Message #137732

[De-Legro]

It propose a review of the current character classes. This is not meant to a wish list for how to improve character classes, because frankly while many classes probably need it, there is simply not the man hours available to do so at this time. Instead I propose to look at each class in detail, and determine if is serves both a unique purpose in the game, fits in to the game world and perhaps more importantly is useful and fun. Suggestions and discussion about the main class/sub class system are also welcome.

To start things off lets start with the default class, the warrior.

[altamira]

I think warrior is useful and fun obviously it doesn't serve a unique purpose . But it gives you a chance to get a feel for how you're going to play your character before you decide what class or subclass to be.

[Indirik]

Well, are we talking "class" only, or are you also including "subclasses"? Warrior by itself kind of overlaps abilities with some of the subclasses.

Warrior by itself is pretty necessary. It's the basic, introductory, default, plain-vanilla class. It is definitely a core class of the game. It may not be truly "unique", but it is fun, it fits, and is essential.

[De-Legro]

Well, are we talking "class" only, or are you also including "subclasses"? Warrior by itself kind of overlaps abilities with some of the subclasses.

Warrior by itself is pretty necessary. It's the basic, introductory, default, plain-vanilla class. It is definitely a core class of the game. It may not be truly "unique", but it is fun, it fits, and is essential.

When we come to subclasses, any analysis will need to look at how they combine with their possible main classes. I doubt there is a case for the warrior to be removed, there may be a case for some of the more warrior oriented sub classes to be removed and features rolled into the warrior though.

[Chenier]

May as well have a combat and a non-combat class that each have their own subclasses. The non-combat subclasses make one able to recruit too few men to be worth much as a troop leader, while the (non-hero) combat subclasses don't add anything to non-combat classes, or even hinder them by preventing some kinds of activities like police work or civil work.

Priest/hero is actually a good combo, as it grants most of the hero's perks without any of the risk, namely an option to escape prison which is much more handy in the hands of a priest than of a troop leader. It doesn't feel like this was really intended behavior, though.

Diplomats add something in the terms of a means to affect loyalty, though we've played for years without that without apparent issue. Seems like all sympathy stats reset to "worshipful" anyways, at least on Dwilight... They don't have as much use since we shifted away from the new treaty systems, however. Laud/praise could easily be merged back into courtiers, though. Trader hardly adds anything, and isn't available to priests.

Cavaliers... are just gamey. Their sole purpose seems to be to create these monstrosities that have a million honor points. I don't like the class, it really doesn't add anything substantial to the game.

Infiltrators were once useful, most would agree they no longer are (even if I know some will disagree with me). If at least they could move with the army and do normal troop leader stuff, they'd be useful and have real plausible deniability, but they can't recruit many men and doing stuff with peers nearby increases the odds of being captured by your own realm mates and sent off to enemy jail.  I don't like the class anymore, and I don't think it adds anything to the game as they currently are.

And priests... well... I've played so many priests for so long, and still have one... but I don't like the class either. A class that's intentionally broken in order to be an "RP class" is worthless, as nothing of the other classes prevents the character from being RPed just as much.

It'd be simpler to just have two base classes, and then an "elite" subclass (hero for warriors and ambassador for courtiers).

Also, I've always had the impression that the inability to do civil work or police work was supposed to be some perk, as it would give the character an excuse to rush to the front instead of staying behind to repair up regions, but with the dwindling player base, I've found it more frustrating than anything when I had those subclasses because I couldn't even fix up my own regions properly.

[Indirik]

It'd be simpler to just have two base classes, and then an "elite" subclass (hero for warriors and ambassador for courtiers).

I've actually taken that stance (or something very similar) before in discussions with Anaris. I do tend to think that we have a few too many class/subclass combos. I don't know that I'd go quite so simple. though. Anyway, that's getting too far ahead in the discussion.

[De-Legro]

May as well have a combat and a non-combat class that each have their own subclasses. The non-combat subclasses make one able to recruit too few men to be worth much as a troop leader, while the (non-hero) combat subclasses don't add anything to non-combat classes, or even hinder them by preventing some kinds of activities like police work or civil work.

Priest/hero is actually a good combo, as it grants most of the hero's perks without any of the risk, namely an option to escape prison which is much more handy in the hands of a priest than of a troop leader. It doesn't feel like this was really intended behavior, though.

Diplomats add something in the terms of a means to affect loyalty, though we've played for years without that without apparent issue. Seems like all sympathy stats reset to "worshipful" anyways, at least on Dwilight... They don't have as much use since we shifted away from the new treaty systems, however. Laud/praise could easily be merged back into courtiers, though. Trader hardly adds anything, and isn't available to priests.

Cavaliers... are just gamey. Their sole purpose seems to be to create these monstrosities that have a million honor points. I don't like the class, it really doesn't add anything substantial to the game.

Infiltrators were once useful, most would agree they no longer are (even if I know some will disagree with me). If at least they could move with the army and do normal troop leader stuff, they'd be useful and have real plausible deniability, but they can't recruit many men and doing stuff with peers nearby increases the odds of being captured by your own realm mates and sent off to enemy jail.  I don't like the class anymore, and I don't think it adds anything to the game as they currently are.

And priests... well... I've played so many priests for so long, and still have one... but I don't like the class either. A class that's intentionally broken in order to be an "RP class" is worthless, as nothing of the other classes prevents the character from being RPed just as much.

It'd be simpler to just have two base classes, and then an "elite" subclass (hero for warriors and ambassador for courtiers).

Also, I've always had the impression that the inability to do civil work or police work was supposed to be some perk, as it would give the character an excuse to rush to the front instead of staying behind to repair up regions, but with the dwindling player base, I've found it more frustrating than anything when I had those subclasses because I couldn't even fix up my own regions properly.

When we come to the sub-classes I would suggest that the limits on troops be re-examined. I accept that there is a case for them commanding less men, but I think in most cases the penalties are far too harsh and simply make the class unattractive given what the focus of the game is supposed to be.

[Sypher]

Warrior is needed and necessary (or some equivalent). The other classes/subclasses are the ones in need of more of a look in my mind and it helps to think about the skills associated with each class:

Warrior (Swordfighting, Jousting, Leadership)
Courtier (Bureaucracy)
Priest (Oratory)

Subclasses:
Hero
Cavalier
Infiltrator (Infiltration) - swordfighting comes from warrior and not infiltrator right? can a courtier/infiltrator train swordfighting at the academy?
Trader (Trading)
Diplomat/Ambassador (Oratory)

[Zakilevo]

I think main classes are pretty clear cut. Warriors can lead troops, courtiers can work on regions, and priests are useless mechanic wise - but can be annoying - but good for people who like RPing about religions.

Trader: I think Trader is not that useful anymore. Not many people are traders and it might as well be removed for being too unpopular.

Diplomat: I think instead of having a diplomat class, there should just be ambassador only with all the current diplomat options moved to it. And maybe only allow it to be accessible by those who are appointed by their ruler? Or just delete it all together and add all of its function to courtier?

Hero: Only way for people to die in BM. It is rather underwhelming for a class that allows you to die though. Hero's special abilities only randomly appear so it isn't even worth being this class unless you want your character to die. And this class's ability to recruit more troops gets shadowed by Cavalier. To make this class work better, I think its abilities should be more consistent. And maybe give the class a boost by adding maybe ability to not panic on the field or maintain morale throughout a battle or something.

Cavalier: Probably the best class if you are only thinking purely of battle. Being not able to loot doesn't hurt as much anymore I think with the new peasant militia. Might as well just take the region you are in over. Being able to command elite units is often good in realms that can support you. Leading 100 cavalries to deliver over 4k hits is no joke. Also, being able to earn at least one honour per battle (except against peasants) is a great way to increase your unit limit.

Hero/Cavalier: These classes should just be combined or be more distinct. I honestly think there is little reason to choose hero over cavalier if you don't want to die.

Infiltrator: Too risky and too underwhelming at the moment. Losing too much honour leads to your character becoming an outlaw meaning you need to opt out every now and then to regain enough points to become an infiltrator again. Also, takes too long to train one. Just an annoyance at best.

[De-Legro]

I think main classes are pretty clear cut. Warriors can lead troops, courtiers can work on regions, and priests are useless mechanic wise - but can be annoying - but good for people who like RPing about religions.

With the changes to estates and other changes, courtiers are mostly redundant in working on regions in my experience, beyond some fiddling when a region is first TO'd.

[Zakilevo]

I think courtiers are still useful but it is really hard to stop a region from losing stats over time.

Maybe courtiers should be able to prevent the reduction for a certain duration?

I wouldn't call the class redundant but the class definitely is less useful now.

[De-Legro]

I think courtiers are still useful but it is really hard to stop a region from losing stats over time.

Maybe courtiers should be able to prevent the reduction for a certain duration?

I wouldn't call the class redundant but the class definitely is less useful now.

Most regions my courtier visit can not be improved. Remember though the regions now tend to a steady state below MAX stats. The concept is that is should be hard to keep region stats maximised at all times.

[Sypher]

The Trader subclass is rarely used (only 1 on Dwilight out of 233 characters). I wouldn't imagine it being highly used on other islands.

[Chenier]

With the changes to estates and other changes, courtiers are mostly redundant in working on regions in my experience, beyond some fiddling when a region is first TO'd.

Hence why I'd merge all of the non-combat subclass options into it: better trading range, diplomatic work, so on. Still wouldn't be a powerful class, but it'd give more tools to those who aren't active enough for battle but want to contribute. Maybe give them a boost for doing civil or police work?

[De-Legro]

Hence why I'd merge all of the non-combat subclass options into it: better trading range, diplomatic work, so on. Still wouldn't be a powerful class, but it'd give more tools to those who aren't active enough for battle but want to contribute. Maybe give them a boost for doing civil or police work?

Something I have thought about for a while is to get rid of subclass and have instead specialisations. The specialisation in general would not add more abilities, but boost the relevant ones. So as you say a courtier would have the non-combat skills and be able to fulfil all those roles, with a small advantage in their area of specialisation.